Why don't we have green surrounds that look like this anymore?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mike Cirba posted a link to a photo essay of Pebble--1929&2019. It is pretty fascinating. I especially enjoyed seeing the differences between the green surrounds of number seven. I can't say I like one more than another but am curious why so few courses look like the 1929 photo.

[Joe Hancock]

Have to have room to turn the spray rig, mowers, rollers.........


Seriously though, my first reaction had to do with bunker expectations. All that surrounding sand is likely to be full of footprints. We just can’t accept that today, and, in my opinion, hinders creative design. We have no one to blame but ourselves....

[Tommy Williamsen]

I know that some bunkers are designed to get a sand-pro in it. Handraking is expensive. I suspect that the older surround can never be fully raked. But we do have "waste areas" that are unraked.

[Marty Bonnar]

Have to have room to turn the spray rig, mowers, rollers.........


Seriously though, my first reaction had to do with bunker expectations. All that surrounding sand is likely to be full of footprints. We just can’t accept that today, and, in my opinion, hinders creative design. We have no one to blame but ourselves....

❤️,
F.

[jeffwarne]

wind

[Matt MacIver]

I like those sand areas because I would have putted it out...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tommy,

The ravages of the Great Depression, which caused many clubs to focus on cutting costs. I think it's a possibility that AWT's trips for the PGA didn't help the cause for bunkers, an unwitting side effect of its true intent.
The lack of sites with the proper conditions to make such a hole feasible.
The deaths of nearly all the architects, post-depression era, who would even contemplate such a configuration.
The growing PGA Tour and it's focus on stroke play and fairness, which trickled down to all course construction - a configuration like the old PB photo might embarrass a few folks.
 
 

[Sean_A]

Like Jeff says  what keeps the sand down? I don't think the surround look right...strikes me as not well integrated and a bit fake looking


Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Like Jeff says  what keeps the sand down? I don't think the surround look right...strikes me as not well integrated and a bit fake looking


Ciao

The marine layer?

[Peter Pallotta]

The experts like Joe H and Jim K are no doubt right, so I'll allow myself (as an outsider) to speculate:
It's because our tastes have gotten steadily worse since the Jazz Age.
They don't make stars like Myrna Loy or Rosalind Russell anymore.

[Tom_Doak]

Wind, and traffic.


Few seem to appreciate that many of these old photos are a snapshot in time. I’d bet a lot of $ that the hole didn’t look like the picture for even one full year.  Likewise, Billy Bell’s frilly edges would need to be edged constantly to keep that look, because grass grows horizontally . . . Trent Jones tried the same effect, with the same problem.


You could restore the 7th at Pebble to the photo, but it wouldn’t last long.  You could maybe reproduce it somewhere else, away from the ocean, where it would last a little longer.

[Jerry Kluger]

Money - can't charge $500 per round if it isn't green and manicured.

[Tom_Doak]

Money - can't charge $500 per round if it isn't green and manicured.

Well, Tara Iti looks as much like that photo as any modern course does, and they seem to be able to charge whatever they want.  Friars Head, too.

[Ira Fishman]

I know that some bunkers are designed to get a sand-pro in it. Handraking is expensive. I suspect that the older surround can never be fully raked. But we do have "waste areas" that are unraked.

We seem to be tolerant of unranked waste areas off the fairway, but not near the green. That never has made sense to me. If I end up in a footprint, it serves me right for hitting a poor shot.


Ira

[Jerry Kluger]

I believe Tara Iti and Friars Head are both private and aren't trying to sell themselves to the public.

[archie_struthers]

 


I'm not aware of the exact weather conditions at Pebble. Know its not always southern Cali perfect! Across the continent at Pine Valley the issue with thunderstorms and tremendous wash outs caused the superintendents to grow grass in many spots to preclude this.


The early pictures of the best course in Clementon ,NJ have this same look. I'm also guessing that time has made players less accepting of horrible lies in the sand!

[Wade Whitehead]

These pictures offer a great contrast that can be explained this way:

>95% of GCA prefers photo #1
>95% of everybody else prefers photo #2

WW

[Mark Pearce]

Money - can't charge $500 per round if it isn't green and manicured.

Well, Tara Iti looks as much like that photo as any modern course does, and they seem to be able to charge whatever they want.  Friars Head, too.

How is the wind at Tara Iti compared to Pebble?

[Tom_Doak]

How is the wind at Tara Iti compared to Pebble?

Tara Iti is a pretty windy place.  We had more trouble establishing grass there than on any of our other seaside courses, because there was so much exposed sand ready to get blown on top of the fairways every time the wind came up.


Most of my rounds at Pebble were in the summer, and I've never encountered it when it was really windy.  On average, at least, I doubt it is windier than Tara Iti.

[Kalen Braley]

I was under the impression that courses on windy sites constantly fight the moving sand battle.


If other sites like Bandon can do this, I would think Pebble could as well with the resources as its disposal.  And if I had to guess places like Bandon and Tara Iti are more windy on average.

[Matt_Cohn]

Because the integration with the surrounding landscape left something to be desired:




That said, I hadn't seen this old picture of #13 until now, and I like it.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:


That's an awesome picture of 6 & 7, I've never seen that one before.  Where did it come from?


The version of 13 green pictured is MacKenzie's, I believe.  He worked on that green at the same time as #8, but he had a falling out with Joe Mayo who ran Pebble Beach, and Chandler Egan [who was MacKenzie's partner, or about to be his partner] finished it.


A lot of people dismiss #13, but I've always thought it was an underrated hole:  you had to take on the big bunker left to play up into the tilt of the green.  I guess they've neutered the green since I last played it, many years ago.

[Mike Bodo]

Were the sandy waste areas on 6 and 7 originally a natural feature at PB or were they manufactured or accentuated? I rather like the original hole designs to the current, as the waste areas look like they belong there.

[Matt_Cohn]

That's an awesome picture of 6 & 7, I've never seen that one before.  Where did it come from?

It's a PBC photo. I had seen it previously and Google image searched until I found it again.

[Tom_Doak]

Were the sandy waste areas on 6 and 7 originally a natural feature at PB or were they manufactured or accentuated? I rather like the original hole designs to the current, as the waste areas look like they belong there.

I can't imagine the top of the bluff there is naturally sandy.  It would have gotten blown down to sandstone long ago.