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Thomas Dai

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Surveying etc and techie developments
« on: February 22, 2019, 03:57:41 PM »
The other day I saw a photo of Charles MacKenzie, yes Major Charles not Dr Alister, standing next to a surveyors tripod looking over a course he was working on.
It may well have been a staged photo but no matter as it was the tripod that caught my eye and got me wondering how developments in suveying etc and the variety of related techie aspects that have developed over the decades has changed course design. Use, accuracy, detail, speed, printing, presentations, field work etc etc.
Thoughts?
Atb

Steve Lang

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2019, 12:51:18 PM »
 8)  Might want to ask Mike Nuzzo, he was using gps and digitizing pad for drawing things back in 2005 or so...  now that should be a picture for future generations!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2019, 04:21:05 PM »

Thomas,


When I entered the biz in 1977, we used a tripod not much different than you see in the old photos.  When I started my own firm, I bought one and used it extensively (although it had a bigger housing and looked more modern) until it got dropped and damaged beyond repair.  I had to leave surveying to others or rent one for a day.


One big development was the Linker or Direct Read rod. Instead of having 0 feet at the bottom, which meant you had to do some math (Height of Instrument - Rod reading, or 100-7+ 93) to figure elevation, and you had a little survey book to write all that down.  Then, they put 0 at the top, so you could direct read the elevation.  If HI was 100, and you set the rod to 0 at HI, then what you read was the actual elevation.  Then, you wrote it down in a book. 


Most tripods had what was called a plane table. You set up 0 degrees back to the dogleg, and the degrees were written out on the table.  To survey an existing (or proposed) point, you read the angle, taped the distance and read the rod, did the math.  You could actually put paper down there on the plane table, but most times, we took it back to the office.


Sometime in the 1990's the Top Con system (and others) came into being.  It spun on its tripod, sending out a laser beam, eliminating the guy over the rod.  One person would walk around and raise the rod until it beeped, which recorded the grade at the station.  That got downloaded on an office computer to make the topo map.  If staking proposed, you still had to manually set the angle and tape the distance to a proposed green edge, etc., but making the map of existing topo got a lot easier.


There are several similar systems today.  I haven't seen too many companies use it, but one system has the surveyor strap on a back pack with a unit, selects a point to stake, and walks around until it beeps, letting them know they are at the point they want to place a grade stake.  For proposed staking, they have to load in an Auto Cad (or other vector based program) grading plan.  The unit stores the proposed grade from input back at the office, and knows the existing grade from satellites.  It even tells them the relative grade to the land, like " +4.2 feet and you can mark the stake with a yardstick or longer.


I love that system when in use.  On many occasions, they can stake a tee or green in an hour by walking around.  I come in, look, and can often tell immediately that grades can come down, or need to go up, etc.  Contractors love it because it usually means the architect can approve grading before it happens, not look at it and come back in a few weeks and change that amount of bulldozer work.


One funny story, a contractor was using the system, but declined to pay for the premium satellite package (which supposedly included two Russian satellites, 11 all told, and the reading would measure and average out all of them.  They only paid for a portion of that and we could tell immediately stakes were off by sometimes a hundred feet.  They added to their subscription and voila, they were accurate the next time I came.



About ten years ago I saw the first laser level on bulldozer blades.  Load similar topo info in and the dozer automatically sets blade levels to proposed grades with very little operator input (at least in the basic initial shaping, later of course, no one does it like a talented shaper)


Another odd story, when I started it was common to use steel measuring tapes.  Apparently in the most critical applications, cloth tape found in common retractable measuring tapes was considered to stretch too much.  Given all the free form in golf course building, I thought steel tape was not necessary, so I bucked convention and always used cloth tapes.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 04:23:51 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2019, 07:31:09 PM »
The other day I saw a photo of Charles MacKenzie, yes Major Charles not Dr Alister, standing next to a surveyors tripod looking over a course he was working on.
It may well have been a staged photo but no matter as it was the tripod that caught my eye and got me wondering how developments in suveying etc and the variety of related techie aspects that have developed over the decades has changed course design. Use, accuracy, detail, speed, printing, presentations, field work etc etc.
Thoughts?
Atb


Old Tom MacWood find:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=35723.5


I think this topic can be extrapolated to so many things in life, but sticking to golf - Were golf courses better build with:


 1) Horses, manual labor, and feel, or
 2) Machines, back hoes, and computers?


Obviously, I lean to #1, but drainage is better in the Modern era on 2nd tier sites.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Steve Lang

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2019, 08:56:32 PM »
 8)  Tools are tools, and i don't romanticize about the older courses, and the tools used or not used in their construction.  It seems folks would use either what tools and labor they could afford minimally or tools that they could appreciate and plan to use efficiently.  e.g., its easier and quicker to build a pond with a track tractor with blade than a back hoe.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Ian Andrew

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2019, 10:05:44 PM »
A few years back, I worked on two projects where I was on site full-time.
We paid many items by the unit - to provide flexibility in design - which was then measured daily by GPS.
The GPS unit is attached to a rod.

Every point you shoot - done with a simple click - is registered as an elevation good to a fraction of an inch.
You receive this by placing the rod and simply selecting the point.
You can have them for a loop for an area.
Or collect spot elevations and use the software top generate new grades if you need them.

For example I can perfectly quantify liner or sand volume in a bunker in about a minute with the unit

So, why is this helpful?
So I know where my budgets and where the contract stands as soon as I added the quantities into a spreadsheet.
Does it make a better design ... not specifically
But for most of us the budget is a finite number, so it does create design flexibility by knowing where you are.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 10:20:29 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2019, 10:52:00 AM »

Ian,


Forgot to mention that now there is a phone app, "Fields Area Measurement" (and several similar) that you used to have to pay some GPS guy to do.  I find it useful in quickly checking to make sure the contractor hasn't shorted the area of tees and greens by pulling the stakes in a foot all the way around, etc.  Would work for measuring sand bunkers as well.


Perhaps the most interesting thing is most folks, myself included, over estimate actual area.  Looking at a green I think is 10K SF, it turned out to be only 7800.  If I guess 6000 sf, it is usually 5000, etc.  While a few contractors have been known to short quantities on purpose, in many cases, it can also happen by accident when things seem to look right.


I have also used the app to field check drainage area for catch basin design (sometimes, the area takes on more water than the topo map shows through minor changes).  But, can also measure cleared areas, etc.  Seems to be really accurate.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2019, 12:20:50 PM »
There were also things in existence called slide rules back in the day.


Anyone want to fess up to using those?

Steve Lang

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2019, 08:02:15 PM »
 8)  I had a slide rule in 6th grade, for algebra snd geometry stuff, but had to move to 5 place logarithm tables sophomore year in high school chemistry, as not enough accuracy from the slide rule... 


dirt and sand volumes... could certainly be guesstimated by a trained eye... if you're trusting of your suppliers
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Guy Nicholson

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2019, 08:22:36 PM »
My father was a land surveyor, and I spent a few summers working for him. (No golf design projects, unfortunately!)


The tripod is actually the word for just the three-legged base. A glass head used to read elevations is called a level. The full head, with high-powered optics that could read horizontal and vertical angles to fractions of a second at long distances, is called a transit theolodite (transit, for short). My dad was still using his 1950s-era transits until he sold his business around 2000, and he had one tripod that dated from the 1920s. But most younger surveyors had moved on to digitally advanced tech by that point, and of course most of the elevation/GPS stuff is much better served by the equipment already described in this thread.

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2019, 07:37:14 AM »
Just for accuracy, it’s theodolite, not theolodite.

(Been at the business end of one way too often!)
F.


PS more and more these days it’s dumpy levels or better still a total station.
Next gen is laser gis scanning and 3D mapping.


I also joined in a thread recently talking about drones with hyperspectral imaging/sensing. That could be amazing!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 07:45:29 AM by Marty Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2019, 10:12:26 AM »
Forgot to mention that now there is a phone app, "Fields Area Measurement" (and several similar) that you used to have to pay some GPS guy to do.

1. Who's paying a GPS guy? This is pretty standard stuff in the field.

2. The accuracy of any phone based app is no where near good enough. Btw, nor is a lower end GPS unit when it comes to any payment work. Horizontally the GPS units may be "ok" but vertically they're pretty much useless.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 11:16:59 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2019, 12:28:33 PM »

Also forgot to mention the digital level for measuring slope on greens (and for really bad contractors, slope on tees, LOL)


Ian,


Typically, my irrigation guy adds a day or so to his field staking time, or does it on the Punch list walk through, so it doesn't cost a lot. I have heard a few tout that their devices are better than some others as a sales pitch, and do try to use the best.


I have never actually measured dirt quantities for payment, making it a lump sum and "horse trading" to keep it even as it needs to be, a little less here, more there, etc.  Similarly, with green or bunker sizes mine are nominally lump sum, and we would only add or subtract pay on big differences.  Typically, if I measure greens with the phone, they come out close, or sometimes there is an entire pattern of shorting size.  Then, I would probably recommend using better gear if there was a question.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2019, 05:30:02 PM »
Many thanks for these detailed insights. I wonder how such tech will evolve hereon? The insights have prompted another question but I’ll raise that in a further thread once I’ve worked out how best to phrase it.
Atb

jeffwarne

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2019, 05:49:10 PM »
Just for accuracy, it’s theodolite, not theolodite.





I also joined in a thread recently talking about drones with hyperspectral imaging/sensing. That could be amazing!


It's already happening.
Stealth Air just bought a survey company here in New York
Can now do surveys in a fraction of the time and more accurately.
From their website


Benefits
80% faster than terrestrial measurement
4X’s lower costs on large parcels
Down to 1cm accuracy
Visualize sites in 3D high resolution



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Guy Nicholson

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2019, 12:09:29 PM »
Just for accuracy, it’s theodolite, not theolodite.


Yes! I santrposed the letters.  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2019, 02:48:10 PM »

It's already happening.
Stealth Air just bought a survey company here in New York
Can now do surveys in a fraction of the time and more accurately.
From their website

Benefits
80% faster than terrestrial measurement
4X’s lower costs on large parcels
Down to 1cm accuracy
Visualize sites in 3D high resolution


I have found some variation.  The last actual aerial topo and photograph I did was about $27K.  Have gotten bids for drone topo as low as $11K and as high as the same $27K.  Seems like some firms price the savings on to clients, and others price versus old tech because they think they can.[/l]
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2019, 03:40:45 PM »
Just for accuracy, it’s theodolite, not theolodite.


Yes! I santrposed the letters.  ;)


Yes, I think theolodite was the thing Han Solo was encased in!
 ;D
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

jeffwarne

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Re: Surveying etc and techie developments
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2019, 08:14:16 PM »

It's already happening.
Stealth Air just bought a survey company here in New York
Can now do surveys in a fraction of the time and more accurately.
From their website

Benefits
80% faster than terrestrial measurement
4X’s lower costs on large parcels
Down to 1cm accuracy
Visualize sites in 3D high resolution


  Seems like some firms price the savings on to clients, and others price versus old tech because they think they can.[/l][/l]
They will price vs. old tech as long as they can-the reason I was told is they have a much faster turn around time and are at least as accurate so why charge less.
of course that will change as competition escalates and/or other technologies emerge.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey