"... it's every new World Top 25 course. We are drowning in sameness"

[Mark Pearce]

Jason your no.5 is the biggest tosh I’ve ever seen on GCA. Short grass lies give you the option to putt, chip with a rescue, chip and run with anything between a 4 iron and 9 iron, pitch and run or fly in with a pitch and stop.


Let me think of the options from lush 3 inch grass?? Oh blast with a sand iron and hope.


The great thing with the short grass options are none are the right or wrong way to play the shot, it’s down to the players vision.

Rubbish.  As has been pointed out, the trend for that short grass to be really short means that anyone but an elite player risks chunking anything lofted, so in fact the option is reduced to a putt or a bunt with a utility, or, perhaps, something like an 8 iron.  I thought Jeff explained that well. 


Sensibly short grass, giving the option of a lofted pitch, something less lofted or a putt is a good thing but increasingly that isn't the case and the grass is simply too short.

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Agreed 100% in spirit-a bit less so in practice.
There comes a point where the only way to hit the center of the club is to take a divot unless incredibly shallow and precise.
These are not turf heights one commonly would see in the UK, particularly not at the classic courses you often highlight. And when reduced to the turf height I'm referring to, (less than 1/4 of an inch) the turf is often soft-especially in hot weather.
Suddenly the emphasis is so geared to solid contact that the imagination, visualization and creativity fail.
After a few of those events, the player simply bumbles it along the ground unless HIGHLY skilled.

Agronony skill has outraced wedge skill IMHO.

RW sounds interesting.

Jeff


Agronomy outpaced skill a loooooong time ago.  I basically only use a wedge around greens when forced...and if forced that is almost always my fault.  Some of the onus must be placed on the player.  If a guy is gonna whip out wedge from a tight lie when it isn't necessary he won't get much sympathy from me for a flub. The wedge is a high risk play for the vast majority golfers and that is true for 5 or 10 mil grass.  At least short grass leaves options if there isn't trouble between the golfer and the hole.  The aspect of short grass most don't factor in is greens don't have to be as large.  On flatish land with firm turf, 7-8 mil surrounds with 4-5mil greens is essentially large greens...sometimes with large bumps and bunkers in the them.  I would much prefer to see short grass dominate green surrounds even though I think in truth this isn't the case at all.  Long grass, sometimes very harsh long grass around greens is far more common than the other way around.  Its the same deal with trees and width.  People are starting to prematurely kick against tree removal and wider fairways based on what they see in the media.  In truth, these sorts of courses are pretty rare. I see courses compromised by rough, trees and/or narrrow fairways all the time.  I am to the point where I hate to hear people talk about narrowing fairways and keeping rough high.  The movement for reasonable golf is only just starting to take hold beyond the media darlings.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I suspect that what Jeff describes in relation to US maintenance/agronomy/set-up practices is not the same as what us GB&I folks immediately think of when we think or short cut areas around greens.


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[Sean_A]

I suspect that what Jeff describes in relation to US maintenance/agronomy/set-up practices is not the same as what us GB&I folks immediately think of when we think or short cut areas around greens.

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ATB

I suspect you are right.  But I gotta believe this type of maintenance is among an extreme minority of clubs.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

As a high capper with a medicore chipping game, give me the short rough around greens every day and twice on sunday.  So much easier to get a good result with any kind of wedge, lob, sand, or even pitching...


And while I can deal with short grass with a putter or 8i bump and run, if something is in the way like a bunker or sprinkler head, all bets are off.  Its literally pray and hope for the best trying to flop something off a tight lie!

[Steve Lang]

I suspect that what Jeff describes in relation to US maintenance/agronomy/set-up practices is not the same as what us GB&I folks immediately think of when we think or short cut areas around greens.

Atb

ATB

I suspect you are right.  But I gotta believe this type of maintenance is among an extreme minority of clubs.

Ciao

   Definitely, ... and when you start talking mils remember in the US that's part of inches versus millimeters (mm)   

So:
a) agronomy has outpaced skill on both long and short grasses, options aren't in everyones bag
b) sloped or speedy greens used to distinguish folks with poor putting or the yips, but speed rules today because everyone wants to build that championship or world class course, and greens go flat unnecessarily

seems the sociological continuity at play is that golfers want something they can't have

[Ken Moum]

So, Jeff...


The problem isn't short grass surrounds, it's SHAVED surrounds.


IMHO that's not an architecture problem. It's a maintenance problem. I agree wholeheartedly.


Of course, getting the height of cut right is tricky.


Here in AZ I find the places with firm winter turf allow me to use a high-loft wedge much more effectively than the softer turf in the Midwest.


Scotland is a whole other deal, that I love.

[jeffwarne]

I suspect that what Jeff describes in relation to US maintenance/agronomy/set-up practices is not the same as what us GB&I folks immediately think of when we think or short cut areas around greens.

Atb

ATB

I suspect you are right.  But I gotta believe this type of maintenance is among an extreme minority of clubs.

Ciao

You mean like at the "new world 25 courses"?

[Jason Topp]

Jason your no.5 is the biggest tosh I’ve ever seen on GCA. Short grass lies give you the option to putt, chip with a rescue, chip and run with anything between a 4 iron and 9 iron, pitch and run or fly in with a pitch and stop.


Let me think of the options from lush 3 inch grass?? Oh blast with a sand iron and hope.


The great thing with the short grass options are none are the right or wrong way to play the shot, it’s down to the players vision.

What an achievement!

I used to have the same viewpoint.  However, the level of skill required to play each of the options you suggest is beyond most people, at least on surrounds cut more short than greens were two decades ago.   It becomes a disaster if the course is soggy.


I am not saying 3"rough is a better alternative, but I expect some different thinking at some point. 

[Tom_Doak]

We have talked quite a bit about the grass around the greens for the Houston project - even though we do not expect it to be a World Top 25 course.


To offer a variety of shots around the green, we think you need to offer a variety of situations.  A few bunkers.  A lot of short grass, especially on the greens where there is some elevation, so the ball will roll away from them a bit.  But then it's okay to have long rough next to the green on occasion, too, to test that sort of recovery.  And if you are not good at that shot -- miss the green on the other side. 


Or, practice!

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone else notice how the mowing lines of the short grass areas around the greens has drastically changed in relation to previous years at the current Dubai European Tour event at The Emirates Club? I wonder if this is just for this event or whether it’ll be continued for future member play as well?
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