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Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #300 on: February 06, 2019, 04:43:17 PM »
I am not playing due to injury.
But in my playing days, I researched everything I could think of to improve my game.
One thing I learned, is my learning style is almost completely visual.  I am not analytical and will fail with thoughts on positions, numbers etc.
If I have a good visual of a target or image of my swing, I perform my best.
Saying that, the flag being left in gives me an amazing target to get my brain focused on.  Picturing the spot to hit on a flagstick from outside, say 8-10 feet is far clearer than creating an image inside the hole.  I’d imagine leaving the flag in from outside 5-8 feet will be what I do.......for my best performance.


My students that are serious about improving are testing it.  I mentioned previously, anecdotally, my students are hitting putts with more pace with the flagstick in.  It’s early in testing for most, but they all feel like they are better focused on hitting targets (making putts) than previously.  Results are mixed, but nobody has said they’re putting worse.  Many are making more putts.


Like anything else, there will not be one answer.  Each player or student will have to learn a bit a find what works

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #301 on: February 06, 2019, 05:05:32 PM »
Pat - agreed. I've always felt visualizing the part of the hole the ball is going into is helpful so same concept.


Erik - the Mark Crossfield comments were nowhere near his Golf Digest article so no, I had no way to connect them. You take his 4'-5' estimate as gospel over the reality of how far balls travel past the hole when they have the speed to both hit the back rim and not bounce in the air and hit the back rim and bounce in the air.


Let's fill in the Cal Poly study in the context of Molinari's speeds (i.e. hitting the back rim and bouncing in the air). Cal Poly rolls balls off the perfect putter at a speed going 5' - 7' feet by the hole. The ones that went into the center of the hole hit the back rim but DID NOT bounce in the air. Balls going 5 - 7 feet past the hole did not bounce in the air. Molinari, discussing a test he did months ago thinks maybe balls bouncing in the air might have gone 4' - 5' past. This stretches the limit of speed confidence out several feet. Sure, a ball smashed against the flagstick will help...less speed than that is highly debatable.


You continue to suggest these results are outliers...how many tests have their been? I can think of 5 and 2 of them say keep the flag in if the ball has anywhere near decent speed...

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #302 on: February 06, 2019, 07:42:33 PM »
Erik - the Mark Crossfield comments were nowhere near his Golf Digest article so no, I had no way to connect them.
You could've found the video I was talking about. I connected them for you in that way.

You take his 4'-5' estimate as gospel
No, I don't. He sounded sure of his conclusions, though, and it sheds a little light on his conclusions.

Let's fill in the Cal Poly study in the context of Molinari's speeds (i.e. hitting the back rim and bouncing in the air). Cal Poly rolls balls off the perfect putter at a speed going 5' - 7' feet by the hole.
The Cal Poly "study" can't be given much weight at this point, as they seem to have rolled about nine balls at each, and from 32" away you could see balls hit different parts of the hole even in the badly shot video they presented. It's not a finished study, but let's count it anyway.

You continue to suggest these results are outliers...
That's not an accurate statement at this point. I'm saying that EM's test found the red area in my quickie graph, that's all. The size and shape of the red area would change based on things like the thickness of the flagstick and other little things, but I continue to feel as though the data of all tests shows the red area will be smaller than the green area (and likely less vibrant, too, if vibrancy shows a strength - less vibrant for 10%, more vibrant for 30%).

Jim, I'm just going wherever the data leads me. I couldn't care less what it ultimately shows. I have a hypothesis, which has held up so far, but scientific hypotheses are wrong all the time, and sometimes the best discoveries come with a disproven hypothesis.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 07:57:37 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #303 on: February 06, 2019, 07:45:53 PM »
Ha, of course.


How many of these studies are you aware of?

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #304 on: February 06, 2019, 07:52:42 PM »
How many of these studies are you aware of?
I believe there are seven public studies, and that's if you "count" the Cal Poly San Luis Obispo as a "study" even though it's nowhere near finished at this point. MyGolfSpy, Mine, Lou Stagner, Dave Pelz, Expert Golf, Cal Poly, EM.

Just going where the data leads me, Jim.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #305 on: February 06, 2019, 09:14:07 PM »
Erik - did Lou Stagner ever release his write-up?

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #306 on: February 06, 2019, 09:23:07 PM »
Erik - did Lou Stagner ever release his write-up?
He shared his conclusion publicly. I don't think he's shared his data yet. You could ask. He's planning to re-do the test in the spring, though I've told him it may not be necessary (the golf world may have moved on by then).

There are some non-public studies too.

How about we let others post here, if they want, but otherwise, Jim, let's just resolve to post here only when something "new" (and public) occurs?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #307 on: February 06, 2019, 09:27:15 PM »
Erik, you can feel free to post when and where you want. I appreciate your insight...

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #308 on: February 07, 2019, 10:33:08 AM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but I found it pretty hard to figure out the exact methodology of the EM academy's test. 


With that caveat, it seems like the percentages in their charts are binary--either the putt goes in or it doesn't.  If that's right, they seem not to be including one (perhaps very small) factor, which is how far from the hole a miss ends up.  If you hit a putt hard enough so that it's "bouncing in the air" (whatever that means) and has an entry point of "touching the flagstick," EM's data show that such a putt will drop only 7% of the time with the flag in, and 0% of the time with the flag out--but the data don't measure at all how close the next putt will be. 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #309 on: February 07, 2019, 11:04:03 AM »
Carl,


There's a video link on Erik's site - Lowest Score Wins - of Molinari speaking to a guy named Mark Crossfield about his test. The ball bouncing in the air column indicates that the ball hits the back of the hole hard enough to bounce up in the air and then go in, or not. I initially thought it was literally still bouncing off the ramp as well but that gives a little better clarity In that video (not the test, but discussing the test) he mentions [paraphrasing] the pin being better out unless the ball is going very fast, like 4 or 5 feet by.


In the recently released Cal Poly study (google Cal Poly putting study) the ball going 5 - 7 feet past the hole hit the back rim and do not bounce in the air so I'm suggesting Molinari missed the guess when he said 4 or 5 feet by.


Otherwise, I think you're right that he doesn't discuss the next putt but does show a very distinct advantage to leaving the pin in on those distance that I think are most important...a few feet by but no more than 7 or 8. Does anybody hit a reasonable putt (not off a steep top tier) thinking the ball may go 8 feet by? If so, they're not actually trying to make it...

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #311 on: March 10, 2019, 08:49:12 PM »
Every once in a while...in fact I did today...and it was iconic!


Yours truly,


Francesco Molinari.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #312 on: April 16, 2019, 07:40:25 PM »
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time




A new study that conflicts with Peltz and the other more recent ones discussed here. What are we to believe?  I haven’t pulled a stick out since Jan 1. According to this, I have been stupid.  :(

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #313 on: April 16, 2019, 11:37:51 PM »
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

A new study that conflicts with Peltz and the other more recent ones discussed here. What are we to believe?  I haven’t pulled a stick out since Jan 1. According to this, I have been stupid.  :(
That study is pretty bad from a technical standpoint. I'm curious to see the actual data.
  • The stimp had to be pretty low for balls rolling 8' by to go in without the flagstick every time.
  • 10'10" makes 0 out of 12, but 10'11" (both with the pin out) he makes about 17/30? How?
  • He never says what "off center" is.
  • He only tests off-center at one speed - 4'10" by (we don't know what the actual speed is).
Those are some of the more obvious issues.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #314 on: April 17, 2019, 04:55:44 AM »
I played with three Korean guys at Bethpage yesterday and they liked it in, so I just played along. I made two birdies with the flag in, however one was a chip in. I did ask for the flag out on a downhill 8 footer for par, and missed it :)


When you leave it in, it is obviously faster play and helps my rhythm.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #315 on: April 17, 2019, 08:42:00 AM »
 8)  Played a guy in match play last weekend, he religiously took pin out if flag was within 3 paces, kept coming up short, not really a good putter, so it certainly didn't help unless you let it... couldn't resist asking him about the rule change after we were done!  He said it bothered him on short putts.. :P
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #316 on: April 17, 2019, 09:31:25 AM »
Played a fast 9 at a dump of a Muni this a.m.  9 for 9 in because I am lazy.  It seems to help.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #317 on: April 17, 2019, 03:55:30 PM »
This study matches much closer to real life experience.


Most relevant to me is how rarely it actually matters, and they ind of calculate it. I suggested maybe once every 4 years. They say once every thousand 20+ footers...


Just this weekend I benefited from an opponent hitting a great 30 foot putt that was going maybe 2 feet by (on a slow green, so maybe further on a fast green) that hit the pin just off center, went down and around and out...bogey! 4 up...


Edit out...found what I was looking for.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 03:57:37 PM by Jim Sullivan »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #318 on: April 17, 2019, 06:08:03 PM »
I’ve left it out outside of 10 feet and made more than normal. I’m on the fence with the shorter ones though I am inclined to take it out.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #319 on: April 17, 2019, 06:16:41 PM »
What do you attribute it to Tim? A better target? Or the hole actually being more receptive?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #320 on: April 17, 2019, 06:26:45 PM »
What do you attribute it to Tim? A better target? Or the hole actually being more receptive?


Jim-I think it’s the target. Additionally I like that no one has to tend the pin at greater distances.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #321 on: April 17, 2019, 06:35:12 PM »
for sake of speed, I hit and made a 20 footer with the flag in...ball disappeared like a rabbit. 


I’m the biggest doubter I know but am 1 for 1...

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #322 on: April 17, 2019, 06:48:37 PM »
I haven’t had any misfortune yet as far as hitting the flag and bouncing out.

Steve Fekety

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #323 on: April 17, 2019, 07:01:18 PM »
Year to date I have played over 30 rounds and have witnessed two putts that hit the flag and were spit out.  Both putts were slight right to left breakers.  Both under 10 feet.  Both putts struck with what I felt was a hole-able speed.  Both hit the stick on the low side of center.  Both denied birdie.  Flag is now laying on the ground for any putt that is in make-able range.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you left the flag in?
« Reply #324 on: April 18, 2019, 08:47:03 AM »
The physics and mechanics of pin vs no pin are of secondary importance.  What really matters is results.  Do players who leave the pin in putt better?  I would aim my research at answering that question.  fwiw, my hunch is that it depends on the golfer.   

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