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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2018, 01:02:23 PM »
Sean, my understanding is that a computer algorithm is being developed that will adjust course ratings for weather or other outside conditions based on all other scores posted that day—either at the club or maybe eventually in the area—versus normal scores for those players.  But the modification will have a tight band—never up or down by more than a shot or two or so.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 09:23:33 PM by Jim Hoak »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2018, 02:09:51 PM »
I highly doubt there will ever be a perfect handicap system, so normally I would invoke the infamous "Don't let perfection be the enemy of good".... but even that doesn't seem to apply as CONGU seems to be much better.


Maybe this is just an extension of why they won't change the divot rule, "Cause them is the rules and we've always done it that way"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2018, 02:37:15 PM »

Concessions are made on all sides.  For example, I am told by someone who was involved that the change in 2018 to exclude scores when playing alone was a nod to the R&A to gain consensus.  No one here that I know thinks that this will make the handicap system any more accurate.


Outside of official tournaments beyond the auspices of a single club, the competition committee should be able to make adjustments in the front end to help overcome some of the shortcomings of the handicap system.   Unfortunately, the days of a strong handicap chair are probably over- who wants the thankless job?   


I don't know how they're going to adjust for weather and course conditions, but that's another highly subjective variable in a system already replete with problems.  The pro shop has enough to do with compiling scores, applying handicaps, and posting the winners for each of the flight.  I like the thinking, but am suspicious of the execution.


As to the vanity handicaps, if you get a partner who can't play to his number, either elevate your game, hedge your side, or take bets with other scorecard partners.  I was never a big money gambler, but even in our games, those who couldn't compete over the long run eventually found other groups.




Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2018, 02:45:22 PM »
Lou, the pro shop won’t do anything to adjust scores for weather or course conditions; the computer will.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2018, 04:49:13 PM »
There will be no adjustments for weather conditions. This is a complete misunderstanding powered by marketing speak on part of the governing bodies.

What will happen is that there will be a statistical calculation before the competition to determine the expected total score for the field. If then the actual score is higher, then it will be assumed that this was due to inclement weather and all scores will be adjusted accordingly. Likewise, if the field actually scores better than precalculated, it will be assumed that this was due to particularly favorable course conditions and again, the actual scores are adjusted after the fact.

Again: it has nothing to do with the weather or how the greens putt. All they are going to do is eliminate outliers in competitions by adjusting them towards a mean.

Match play scores will not be eligible. You can easily deduce that from the requirement to not post anything over net double bogey. If applied to match play that would introduce all sorts of mathematical craziness. I'm pretty sure that no governing body will go down that slippery slope.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 04:51:32 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2018, 05:54:47 PM »
Ulrich

I believe you are incorrect.  The #1 reason why field scores deviate significantly from the stated SSS is due to weather conditions (and course conditions which is a byproduct of weather). Trust me, it can and often does make a huge difference in windy areas. Sure, sometimes scores are inexplicably high, but that is very, very very rare.  The issue is especially prominent in winter for links and hilltop clubs when tons of other clubs don't have many qualifiers. Playing the blocks in January is much more often than not a very difficult ask and that is due to weather, not some inexplicable random phenomenon.   

In the US matchplay scores have been used for donkeys years for handicapping purposes.  I think its wrong, but its true and it is meant to go worldwide..at as I understand it..but I do think there will be private fight back against this just as there has always been in the US.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 06:01:27 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2018, 08:29:54 PM »
PS: as for the World Handicap System, every local golf association will have a bit of wiggle room how to implement it. For example, whether casual rounds count is probably going to be a local implementation issue. Only the formulae are truly global, but not when and how they are used.
I don't think so.


PS2: Match play will be undisturbed by the World Handicap System, as match play results are never eligible for handicap purposes (although, funny enough, match play appears to be the reason why handicaps were invented in the first place).

I also don't think you're right about that, either.



Sean, my understanding is that a computer algorithm is being developed that will adjust course ratings for weather conditions based on all other scores posted that day—either at the club or maybe eventually in the area—versus normal scores for those players.  But the modification for weather will have a tight band—never up or down by more than a shot or two or so.

Correct.




I don't know how they're going to adjust for weather and course conditions, but that's another highly subjective variable in a system already replete with problems.  The pro shop has enough to do with compiling scores, applying handicaps, and posting the winners for each of the flight.  I like the thinking, but am suspicious of the execution.

It's an algorithm. Not a person "adjusting" anything.


Match play scores will not be eligible. You can easily deduce that from the requirement to not post anything over net double bogey. If applied to match play that would introduce all sorts of mathematical craziness. I'm pretty sure that no governing body will go down that slippery slope.

Pretty sure you're still wrong on that one. :)
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2018, 11:16:24 AM »
Let's make the game of golf even more attractive to newcomers by modifying the handicap system.............brilliant.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2018, 11:37:57 AM »
Let's make the game of golf even more attractive to newcomers by modifying the handicap system.............brilliant.


Bruce,


A genuine question: why do golf’s newcomers need a handicap? I just don’t see why we should bend over backwards to make your handicap a metric of your progress; plenty of Aps on the internet can do that.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2018, 02:35:57 PM »
Let's make the game of golf even more attractive to newcomers by modifying the handicap system.............brilliant.


Bruce, I don't see the connection between the handicap system and the attractiveness of golf to newcomers.  Would you elaborate?
The modifications are meant to create a worldwide system through compromise that is acceptable to all countries, and one that is more fair across all levels of players through the analysis of existing data.  I think they have probably succeeded.  Bringing in new golfers--or repelling them--was not part of the consideration.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2018, 02:40:43 PM »
Bruce was being sarcastic. I'm going to kick some serious chump ass when they can no longer post 7's on par threes. Good riddance.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2018, 04:19:53 PM »
There is actually a very strong connection between beginners and the handicap system in Germany and a few (not many) other countries. Which is that they don't let you play without a handicap. Nothing turns off a beginner more than not being allowed to play on 95% of all courses. All the better courses demand a handicap of 36 on weekends.

I remember when I started playing many years ago, my first handicap (after starting with 54) was 51 and then 42 for a while. The handicap was a real issue for me in the beginning, as I couldn't play on most courses.

As to the question whether there will be wiggle room for regional golf associations: it says so in the official press statement: https://www.randa.org/News/2018/02/World-Handicap-System-features-announced

I have also read somewhere that matchplay scores won't count, but can't find the source anymore. In any event, it would be highly questionable, if I win my match in the morning and then for the rematch in the afternoon my opponent gets even fewer (gives up even more) strokes than in the morning. This is mathematically possible, if capping matchplay scores at net double bogey.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2018, 05:19:09 PM »
George Peper has a chapter in his book "Two Years in St. Andrews" that demonstrates the differences between the handicap systems as well as anything I have encountered:


https://www.amazon.com/Two-Years-St-Andrews-Home-ebook/dp/B000GCFY08






Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2018, 05:31:55 PM »
As to the question whether there will be wiggle room for regional golf associations: it says so in the official press statement: https://www.randa.org/News/2018/02/World-Handicap-System-features-announced
Where does it say that? The only thing that seems to apply to is whether to create a handicap after as few as 54 holes:

Quote
A recommendation that the number of scores needed to obtain a new handicap be 54 holes from any combination of 18-hole and 9-hole rounds, but with some discretion available for handicapping authorities or National Associations to set a different minimum within their own jurisdiction.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2018, 07:22:39 PM »
I hesitate to become involved as adjustments are ongoing.  However, the executive director of our regional association has been directly involved in the construction of the new system and he has kept me informed on a regular basis.  Eric's descriptions have been extremely accurate.  The negotiations between the R&A and USGA took considerable time and numerous compromises much like the discussions many years ago when the USGA first adopted a universal system for its jurisdiction.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2018, 08:51:17 PM »
This is much ado about nothing.


I've been handicapped by both CONGU and the USGA since 1981, most of the time between 4 and 7, and when I was playing a lot and posting all my scores there was never more than a stroke difference between the two.  Of course, part of that was the fact that I played by the Rules on both continents.


This whole brouhaha relates to the fact that as Bob Jones once said (in effect):  There is golf and there is competitive golf within the rules and they are two very different things.


I haven't played a casual or competitive round in either the US or the UK with money changing hands at the end of the round for at least 10 years.  Playing for money (with an exception for minimal stakes) with handicap adjustments is just a corruption of how some golfers define the game of golf.


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2018, 08:03:48 AM »
I highly doubt there will ever be a perfect handicap system, so normally I would invoke the infamous "Don't let perfection be the enemy of good".... but even that doesn't seem to apply as CONGU seems to be much better.


Maybe this is just an extension of why they won't change the divot rule, "Cause them is the rules and we've always done it that way"

No, the reason they won't change the divot rule as you call it, is because the essence of the game is, or at least used to be, that you play it as it lies. Of course there will be times when the ball has become unplayable and a penalty drop applies, but I can't recall having an unplayable lie in a divot.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2018, 08:07:23 AM »
Sorry Mark but from what I’ve read ALL SCORES will be posted, except if you play alone. Please correct me if I’m wrong!

No offence but I sincerely hope you are wrong. If you are correct we'll end up not having a casual match because someone will be keeping their score. In fact, what happens in a match play comp ? Do you have to keep your score there too ?

Niall

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2018, 08:11:45 AM »
It will be nice to slow down golfers who use the course as their personal treadmill.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2018, 08:49:19 AM »
Anything that eliminates the need to turn all amateur golf into a controlled experiment is fine by me.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2018, 09:42:52 AM »
In the US sandbagging is a VERY real issue.
You can change the rules and the procedures all you want. However, it still will never solve the issue and there will always be those who seek to gain an advantage.


I'm all in favor of HDCP consistencies globally.
But, you will never change some fundamental realities:


1. There are players who will card an 81, but will post an 82. Oops...;-)
2. Those same players may then shoot a 76 and...Ooops..."forget" to post it...;-)


That's not cheating, right...?


Right...

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2018, 09:58:42 AM »
Sorry Mark but from what I’ve read ALL SCORES will be posted, except if you play alone. Please correct me if I’m wrong!

No offence but I sincerely hope you are wrong. If you are correct we'll end up not having a casual match because someone will be keeping their score. In fact, what happens in a match play comp ? Do you have to keep your score there too ?

Niall



Yes.  That's the current rule in the US and will be the worldwide rule beginning in 2020.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 10:00:30 AM by Jim Hoak »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2018, 10:03:22 AM »
In the US sandbagging is a VERY real issue.
I've never actually seen any data on how big of an issue this actually IS. I feel like a lot of people likely over-estimate the problem… but maybe most of those people voicing concerns are simply people who play in a lot of handicapped events, and so they see the same two or three people performing unusually well in those events. That could mean that both sides are right: 2 or 3 out of 400 at a club are sandbaggers (not a big problem), but those same two or three players win 85% of the events and the 80 members who regularly play in them are annoyed (big problem).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Ian Galbraith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2018, 10:08:00 AM »


Yes.  That's the current rule in the US and will be the worldwide rule beginning in 2020.


That is not what CONGU (our handicapping authority ) is telling us in the UK.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Handicap System
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2018, 10:11:16 AM »
That is not what CONGU (our handicapping authority ) is telling us in the UK.
https://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=10


I've only ever heard that this part will remain basically the same as what we've had with the USGA. That document there says that match play scores should be posted, too, and I've heard nothing but that will be continuing.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

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