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Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2018, 03:18:29 PM »
I nominate Davenport

James Brown

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Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2018, 07:32:23 PM »
I have often heard it said that no great course has ever been built on land with steep elevation changes.  I remember reading an article once that said the first requirement of any great course was "a gently rolling piece of land."  (I always think of Shinnecock when I picture that.)
I think the comments on this post may be proving that generalization true.  While there have been some "good" courses mentioned, I don't believe that any of them would be characterized as "great."
What course in the top 25 in the world has the most elevation change?  Are any Doak 10's on that kind of difficult land?

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2018, 07:33:59 PM »
I have often heard it said that no great course has ever been built on land with steep elevation changes.  I remember reading an article once that said the first requirement of any great course was "a gently rolling piece of land."  (I always think of Shinnecock when I picture that.)
I think the comments on this post may be proving that generalization true.  While there have been some "good" courses mentioned, I don't believe that any of them would be characterized as "great."
What course in the top 25 in the world has the most elevation change?  Are any Doak 10's on that kind of difficult land?


Augusta National?

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2018, 08:41:05 PM »
William Flynn’s


Lehigh CC
Huntingdon Valley CC
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2018, 10:47:07 PM »
Sagebrush certainly fits the bill.

    My first thought upon reading the OP was Sagebrush as well. I'm pretty sure there is a story behind the development of the course and the difficulty of the terrain.  If I'm not mistaken, Tom Doak sent Jim Urbina to take a look at the property on behalf of Renaissance and he came back saying, and I apologize if I'm getting this wrong - "great dramatic property...not sure you can build a golf course there though!".
    Rod Whitman did a pretty remarkable job on that property, all things considered.  I loved Sagebrush...it's such a shame that financial and legal troubles have crippled the place.

My recollection of conversations with the powers that were is that key was realization that the left side of #8 could be buttressed/filled with material on site.  Getting that corridor width enabled the transition from mid-course to the high end of the property.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2018, 12:10:32 AM »
Maybe the now closed Village Course at Kapalua is a good example. There were a few severe uphill holes but it wasn't bad.

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2018, 04:43:31 PM »
Cruden Bay comes to my mind

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2018, 04:48:09 PM »
William Flynn’s


Lehigh CC
Huntingdon Valley CC
Mike-I think you can throw Rolling Green in there as well.

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2018, 09:57:48 PM »
I'd nominate my course for this; LedgeRock.  On a severely hilly piece of property with a few ravines, at least one similar to a gorge.  4 holes are level as well.  While the ravines and steep hills are used for a few forced carry approach and tee shots, there are several times the hillsides can be used to advance the ball a long ways or even use them as sideboards.  It plays very firm and fast, which compliments the hills and slopes. 

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2018, 11:12:08 PM »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2018, 05:17:26 AM »
Delighted to see Brancepeth Castle get a shout here, though I think it's a course that highlights the difficulties here.  Brancepeth has several excellent holes (8 and 9 probably the pick, though 1, 4, 10, 12, 14 are all worthy of a mention) but also several quite ordinary ones (interestingly, the dullest holes are on the flatter land) and one real Marmite hole, the 18th.


Also worthy of note in the North East of England on what may be an even harder piece of land is Scott Macpherson's Colt course at Close House, which is an excellent modern course built on the side of a valley.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2018, 05:36:14 AM »
Dartmouth G&CC in Devon.
Atb

Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2018, 07:59:44 AM »
William Flynn’s


Lehigh CC
Huntingdon Valley CC


This is where Flynn excelled, he knew how to route a damn good golf hole along steep side slopes. I would hire him.  ;D

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2018, 01:59:32 PM »
I have often heard it said that no great course has ever been built on land with steep elevation changes.  I remember reading an article once that said the first requirement of any great course was "a gently rolling piece of land."  (I always think of Shinnecock when I picture that.)
I think the comments on this post may be proving that generalization true.  While there have been some "good" courses mentioned, I don't believe that any of them would be characterized as "great."
What course in the top 25 in the world has the most elevation change?  Are any Doak 10's on that kind of difficult land?


Jim,


Crystal Downs is a Doak 10 and has over 200' of elevation from 12 fairway at the high to just in front of #8 tee in the little wetland at the low.  Front nine alone is about 130'.  There is no gorge unless you call the valleys on 5-8 or 11/17 a gorge but I wouldn't since they are grassed.  There are steep changes at the Downs but you walk through them, hit over them, or enjoy a view from them and then hit a shot from them - lots to learn from there, which I still am 50+ years later.


Cheers,
Mike
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 02:44:15 PM by Mike_DeVries »

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2018, 06:12:26 PM »
Define steep. To me Cruden Bay is not steep, even though it has some steep sections. But the general lay of the land is horizontal, not vertical. It was absolutely no problem to build a course there. It takes a great architect for greatness, but I venture any of us could have designed a decent course on that property.

The go-to guy here in Europe for difficult terrain has been Donald Harradine. He often worked on a shoe-string budget and so he couldn't just blow the terrain to smithereens, he really had to work with it.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2018, 01:09:35 PM »
Lancaster CC by W Flynn.


I second Lancaster.  The land has a lot of movement with many tees and greens on knobs, so to speak. 


Ironically, Westchester Country Club reminds me of Lancaster quite a bit, ironic since these two courses were one of only a few that Twomey and Flynn built but did design along with Burning Tree in Md.


Yale should also be considered.  It is really a BIG piece of land with a fair amount of elevation change, and there is a ton of rock under those fairways.   I gather a fair amount of blasting was required to build the course.


Whipporwill had similar terrain challenges.



_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2018, 03:21:27 PM »
Jamie--


You should check out the splendid Brooksville (FL) Country Club, which sounds like a near-perfect analog for the situation you're describing.

Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2018, 04:31:42 PM »
I tend to agree with the Philly boys on the Flynn courses but how about Stonewall Olde? That one corner of the property really has some rolling and elevation features. A lot like Ledgerock in many ways. The creeks winds its way through the property and was brought into play nicely.

The back nine is a bit like a rollercoaster ending with a great finishing hole.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Richard_Mandell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2018, 08:50:53 AM »
I think Yale and Westchester (both courses, by Travis) are great examples.  My two favorites are Bethpage Black and White Bear Yacht Club when discussing routing on difficult property.  Can't say either are a third/third/third like the example above but they both utilize the land exquisitely when it comes to routing up, down, and around steep slopes.  All four of the examples above truly leave the land alone and place the golf holes on the ground, regardless of the topographical challenges.


One specific hole that comes to mind is the sixth at Pebble Beach, which demonstrates just leaving the steep slope alone and playing over it as a strategic hazard.  It is a refreshing approach rather than heavy machinery making it work (not in 1929, but later if anyone was ever thinking of it).  It reminds me of the challenges of some of the routings we did in China, where, because the Client pushed to minimize earthwork, we creatively went old-school, leaving slopes alone yet still as part of each golf hole's strategy.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2018, 09:17:55 AM »
Dallas National doesn't get much love here, but it is a GD top 100 and the site has the noted characteristics.  The course has a wonderful routing, nice variety of holes, and balances the steep climbs and descends well.  I've walked it on numerous occasions including more than a couple of times with an 80+ year-old member who also carries his clubs and as often as not beats his age (and me). 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2018, 09:18:12 PM »
Sagebrush certainly fits the bill.



My first thought upon reading the OP was Sagebrush as well.


I'm pretty sure there is a story behind the development of the course and the difficulty of the terrain.  If I'm not mistaken, Tom Doak sent Jim Urbina to take a look at the property on behalf of Renaissance and he came back saying, and I apologize if I'm getting this wrong - "great dramatic property...not sure you can build a golf course there though!".



I still have never been there.  It's ancient history now, but my recollection is that Jim was more positive about the site, but not so sure the client would give us creative space, and I looked at the map and felt like it would be nearly 18 sidehill holes.  So we passed.


(I'm sure Jim would correct me if I misrecall the details, except then he'd have to acknowledge he worked for me, so maybe not 😉)


I was happy to hear that my former roommate Rod Whitman got the job.  I would love to see it someday, but the one chance I had, it was closed. 😧

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2018, 09:20:37 PM »
I'd nominate my course for this; LedgeRock. 


Of.  Really?  I have never been there, but a friend of mine was involved and showed me the routing on topo.  Maybe they changed it before construction?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2018, 12:52:38 PM »
Sagebrush certainly fits the bill.



My first thought upon reading the OP was Sagebrush as well.


I'm pretty sure there is a story behind the development of the course and the difficulty of the terrain.  If I'm not mistaken, Tom Doak sent Jim Urbina to take a look at the property on behalf of Renaissance and he came back saying, and I apologize if I'm getting this wrong - "great dramatic property...not sure you can build a golf course there though!".


I still have never been there.  It's ancient history now, but my recollection is that Jim was more positive about the site, but not so sure the client would give us creative space, and I looked at the map and felt like it would be nearly 18 sidehill holes.  So we passed.

(I'm sure Jim would correct me if I misrecall the details, except then he'd have to acknowledge he worked for me, so maybe not 😉)

I was happy to hear that my former roommate Rod Whitman got the job.  I would love to see it someday, but the one chance I had, it was closed. 😧


Tom,


Outside of holes like 1, 5, and 16...it does a pretty good job of providing relatively flat playing corridors if memory serves me correctly.  And outside of a few Jim Engh holes, 16 just may be the most unique par 5s I've played. Overall I think Rod did an excellent job of providing lots of variety, even if its not really walkable, but I don't think anyone could have fixed that.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2018, 01:36:13 PM »


Overall I think Rod did an excellent job of providing lots of variety, even if its not really walkable, but I don't think anyone could have fixed that.


The walkability was also a factor in my turning down the job, now that you mention it.  I never say never, but I've yet to build a course that isn't walkable.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Courses on difficult terrain
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2018, 01:47:15 PM »
I would have thought all 27-holes at Carne would be up there. Even more so given the lack of money etc available.
Atb

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