[Kalen Braley]

Tom D - a question:
When you see these rankings and ratings from others, and compare them to your own personal rankings & ratings, do you think any differences between those two lists can be chalked up to outsiders judging the 'courses' and insiders (ie you) judging the 'architecture'? 
P

Thanks for posing the question that way. I kept wanting to ask TD if he thought to himself "Jesus are these guys clueless".

I find the question completely irrelevant.

Everyone thinks thier baby is the cutest, sweetest, most awesome-est thing in the world even when its pooping, farting, and barfing.

Tom's work speaks for itself, but he'd be one of the last to get an objective opinion on his own courses...

[Sean_A]

Objective opinion...what is that 

To me, talking about a course is silghtly different from talking about the architecture.  While architecture makes up a course, to speak about architecture properly is to get into the whys and hows.  The course simply is....we can assess a course without knowing anything about the hows and whys...the same cannot be said for architecture. In other words, when rating a course we really only need to delve into the architecture at as superficial level.  The architecture could be brilliant just to create an ok course and the architecture could be quite average and still result in a great course.  For the most part, nearly all laymen will never know the difference...even guys who think they know quite a bit.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Tom D - a question:
When you see these rankings and ratings from others, and compare them to your own personal rankings & ratings, do you think any differences between those two lists can be chalked up to outsiders judging the 'courses' and insiders (ie you) judging the 'architecture'? 
P

In The Confidential Guide most of my ratings are about the courses, and not the architecture ... although I might make an exception every now and again.  (The Loop, which was the starting point of this thread, demands to be considered in light of the architecture.)


I do understand that places like Stone Eagle and Rock Creek and Tara Iti were much harder technically to build than Pacific Dunes or Barnbougle or Cape Kidnappers.  But if they weren't great courses, it wouldn't be worth a mention.  Doing "great architecture" to produce a 5 on the Doak Scale really isn't that great.

[Kevin Pallier]

If anyone has the data readily available from the recent Confidential Guides - I'd be interested as to what scores were given for RGD Top10 courses ?

[Daryl David]

Ballyneal 9-9-9-9
[/size]Barnbougle Dunes 9-10-9-8
[/size]Cape Kidnappers    8-10-8-8
[/size]Dismal River (Red)  8-8- - 7
[/size]Old Mac   8-8-8-8
[/size]Pacific Dunes   10-9-10-9
[/size]Rock Creek   9-9- -7
[/size]Streamsong (Blue)   8-8-8-
[/size]St Andrews Beach    8-8-7-7
[/size]Tara Iti   9-8-8-8

[Jeff Schley]

If anyone has the data readily available from the recent Confidential Guides - I'd be interested as to what scores were given for RGD Top10 courses ?

Not sure there is an agreed upon top 10. 

But I put them alphabetical and took out NLE:

Aetna Springs Golf Club - 6,x,x,x,
Apache Stronghold Golf Club - 6,x,x,x
Atlantic City Country Club - 6,x,6,x
Ballyneal Golf Club - 9,9,9,9
Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, with Michael Clayton - 9,10,9,8
Black Forest at Wilderness Valley - 5,7,x,x
Cape Kidnappers Golf Resort - 8,10,8,8
CommonGround Golf Club - 6,6,5,x
Dismal River Club (Red Course) - 8,8,x,7
Grand Saint Emilionnais Golf Club - waiting for TCG #4 to come
Lost Dunes Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Medinah Country Club - Course One - 6,x,x,x
Old Macdonald Golf Links - 8,8,8,8
Pacific Dunes - 10,9,10,9
Quail Crossing Golf Club - 5,5,x,x
Riverfront Golf Club - 5,5,x,x
Rock Creek Cattle Company - 9,9,x,7
Sebonack Golf Club, with Jack Nicklaus - 8,6,8,7
Stoatin Brae Golf Course - 6,x,x,x
Stone Eagle Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Stonewall Golf Club, North Course - 6,6,7,6
Stonewall Golf Club, Old Course - 7,x,7,7
Streamsong Resort (Blue Course) - 8,8,8,x
Tara Iti Golf Club -  9,8,8,8
The Golf Club at St. Andrews Beach, with Michael Clayton -  8,8,7,7
The Legends, Heathlands Course - 6,6,6,x
The Loop at Forest Dunes - 7,7,x,x
The Rawls Course at Texas Tech University - 6,7,x,x
The Renaissance Club - 7,x,6,6
The Sheep Ranch - 6,4,5,x
The Village Club of Sands Point - 4,x,x,x
Tumble Creek at Suncadia - 7,6,6,7

Of interest to those who feel TD is biased for his own courses I have tabulated the averages for the four course raters in TCG. He is the LOWEST.  However, it isn't exactly accurate keep in mind, as Tom rated 31 courses, Ran 23, Masa 19, Darius 16. However, good data point. 


TD - 6.94
Ran - 7.13
Masa - 7.21
Darius - 7.25


There are three courses where TD's rating is the highest (without a tie) in cases with at least one other rater filing a score. Tara Iti, The Renaissance Club, The Sheep Ranch. There are two courses where TD's rating is the lowest (without a tie) in cases with at least one other rater filing a score.  The Rawls Course at Texas Tech and Black Forest at Wilderness Valley.

[Jeff Schley]

The top 10 per TCG average ranking:

1. Pacific Dunes - 10,9,10,9 - 9.50
2. Ballyneal Golf Club - 9,9,9,9 - 9.00
2. Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, with Michael Clayton - 9,10,9,8 - 9.00
4. Cape Kidnappers Golf Resort - 8,10,8,8 - 8.50
5. Rock Creek Cattle Company - 9,9,x,7 - 8.33
6. Tara Iti Golf Club -  9,8,8,8 - 8.25
7. Old Macdonald Golf Links - 8,8,8,8 - 8.00
7. Streamsong Resort (Blue Course) - 8,8,8,x - 8.00
9. Dismal River Club (Red Course) - 8,8,x,7 - 7.67
10. The Golf Club at St. Andrews Beach, with Michael Clayton -  8,8,7,7 - 7.50

[Kevin Pallier]

Jeff

Thanks for your summaries - of the Top10 it seems Oliver doesn't rate the RGD courses as high as the others. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff

Thanks for your summaries - of the Top10 it seems Oliver doesn't rate the RGD courses as high as the others.

Darius's grades are slightly lower across the board for all courses; Ran's are slightly higher.


I think Darius has six or seven of my courses in his world top 100, so it's not like he hates my work!

[Tom_Doak]

The top 10 per TCG average ranking:

1. Pacific Dunes - 10,9,10,9 - 9.50
2. Ballyneal Golf Club - 9,9,9,9 - 9.00
2. Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, with Michael Clayton - 9,10,9,8 - 9.00
4. Cape Kidnappers Golf Resort - 8,10,8,8 - 8.50
5. Rock Creek Cattle Company - 9,9,x,7 - 8.33
6. Tara Iti Golf Club -  9,8,8,8 - 8.25
7. Old Macdonald Golf Links - 8,8,8,8 - 8.00
7. Streamsong Resort (Blue Course) - 8,8,8,x - 8.00
9. Dismal River Club (Red Course) - 8,8,x,7 - 7.67
10. The Golf Club at St. Andrews Beach, with Michael Clayton -  8,8,7,7 - 7.50

Which, coincidentally, are the same ten courses my associates and I picked as our best.  It's pretty good when your tenth best course has two 8's on the Doak scale!

[Jeff Schley]

Jeff

Thanks for your summaries - of the Top10 it seems Oliver doesn't rate the RGD courses as high as the others.

Yes you are correct.  If you look at the numbers for courses that both TD and Darius both give a rating (16 courses) they are:


Ballyneal Golf Club - 9,9,9,9
Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, with Michael Clayton - 9,10,9,8
Cape Kidnappers Golf Resort - 8,10,8,8
Dismal River Club (Red Course) - 8,8,x,7
Lost Dunes Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Old Macdonald Golf Links - 8,8,8,8
Pacific Dunes - 10,9,10,9
Rock Creek Cattle Company - 9,9,x,7
Sebonack Golf Club, with Jack Nicklaus - 8,6,8,7
Stone Eagle Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Stonewall Golf Club, North Course - 6,6,7,6
Stonewall Golf Club, Old Course - 7,x,7,7
Tara Iti Golf Club -  9,8,8,8
The Golf Club at St. Andrews Beach, with Michael Clayton -  8,8,7,7
The Renaissance Club - 7,x,6,6
Tumble Creek at Suncadia - 7,6,6,7

TD scores those 16 courses with an average of 7.94

Darius scores those 16 courses with an average of 7.25

A difference of .69 on average. I would like to know what Darius was thinking on Rock Creek Cattle where he gave a 7.

[Jeff Schley]

To be fair to Darius, let's compare TD to both Ran and Masa separately. First Ran:

Ballyneal Golf Club - 9,9,9,9
Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, with Michael Clayton - 9,10,9,8
Black Forest at Wilderness Valley - 5,7,x,x
Cape Kidnappers Golf Resort - 8,10,8,8
CommonGround Golf Club - 6,6,5,x
Dismal River Club (Red Course) - 8,8,x,7
Lost Dunes Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Old Macdonald Golf Links - 8,8,8,8
Pacific Dunes - 10,9,10,9
Quail Crossing Golf Club - 5,5,x,x
Riverfront Golf Club - 5,5,x,x
Rock Creek Cattle Company - 9,9,x,7
Sebonack Golf Club, with Jack Nicklaus - 8,6,8,7
Stone Eagle Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Stonewall Golf Club, North Course - 6,6,7,6
Streamsong Resort (Blue Course) - 8,8,8,x
Tara Iti Golf Club -  9,8,8,8
The Golf Club at St. Andrews Beach, with Michael Clayton -  8,8,7,7
The Legends, Heathlands Course - 6,6,6,x
The Loop at Forest Dunes - 7,7,x,x
The Rawls Course at Texas Tech University - 6,7,x,x
The Sheep Ranch - 6,4,5,x
Tumble Creek at Suncadia - 7,6,6,7

TD scored the above 23 with an average of : 7.26

Ran scored the above 23 with an average of : 6.70

A difference of .56.  Also of note we find more 2 point differences of opinion than the others at 4 of the 23 possible courses.

[Jeff Schley]

Finally TD compared to Masa.

Atlantic City Country Club - 6,x,6,x
Ballyneal Golf Club - 9,9,9,9
Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, with Michael Clayton - 9,10,9,8
Cape Kidnappers Golf Resort - 8,10,8,8
CommonGround Golf Club - 6,6,5,x
Lost Dunes Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Old Macdonald Golf Links - 8,8,8,8
Pacific Dunes - 10,9,10,9
Sebonack Golf Club, with Jack Nicklaus - 8,6,8,7
Stone Eagle Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Stonewall Golf Club, North Course - 6,6,7,6
Stonewall Golf Club, Old Course - 7,x,7,7
Streamsong Resort (Blue Course) - 8,8,8,x
Tara Iti Golf Club -  9,8,8,8
The Golf Club at St. Andrews Beach, with Michael Clayton -  8,8,7,7
The Legends, Heathlands Course - 6,6,6,x
The Renaissance Club - 7,x,6,6
The Sheep Ranch - 6,4,5,x
Tumble Creek at Suncadia - 7,6,6,7

TD rated the 19 courses above with an average of : 7.47

Masa rated the 19 courses above with an average of : 7.21

So that is .26 of a differential. We don't see any 2 point variations between these two raters either.

[Jeff Schley]

Finally for courses that ALL 4 raters have played we have the following:

Ballyneal Golf Club - 9,9,9,9
Barnbougle Dunes Golf Links, with Michael Clayton - 9,10,9,8
Cape Kidnappers Golf Resort - 8,10,8,8
Lost Dunes Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Old Macdonald Golf Links - 8,8,8,8
Pacific Dunes - 10,9,10,9
Sebonack Golf Club, with Jack Nicklaus - 8,6,8,7
Stone Eagle Golf Club - 7,6,7,6
Stonewall Golf Club, North Course - 6,6,7,6
Tara Iti Golf Club -  9,8,8,8
The Golf Club at St. Andrews Beach, with Michael Clayton -  8,8,7,7
Tumble Creek at Suncadia - 7,6,6,7

We have 12 courses and here are their averages:

TD - 8.00
Ran - 7.67
Masa - 7.75
Darius - 7.42

So as expected you really have to dig into the numbers to find the actual relationships. We could plot all the data into a normal distribution and get the standard deviation, variance, etc. However we see that when you take out the courses from the RGD that only TD had the opportunity to rate (which were 5/6's mostly) his scores are the highest of all four raters.  Darius is the most stingy.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:  keeping the comparisons between eaters to my courses is maybe misleading.  It's only natural I'm going to feel better about my own work than others would; I did have the chance to build what I like, after all.


My point was that Darius is generally the lowest voter across all courses that all four of us have rated, and Ran the highest, with me and Masa in the middle.  Two examples:  Darius rates Royal Melbourne in the top ten in the world on his own site, but only gives it a 9 in my book; and he rates Rock Creek 47th in the US on Planet Golf, but it only gets a 7 on the Doak Scale. 


I don't think that's inconsistency; it's just that he is a bit more reluctant to hand out 10's (or 8's) than the rest of us.  He's only given a 10 to nine courses worldwide, whereas I have fourteen of them, and Ran more than that.

[Jim Franklin]

I thought I heard Darius say something about Rock Creek not being near the ocean is why it wasn't higher. I still don't get Tara Iti only being an 8.

And if Royal Melbourne can't get a 10, wow, just wow....

[Daryl David]

So Darius is a tough rater and Ran is a little easier.  That’s just fine.  Love the diversity in having the 4 opinions. Smart move of Tom to enlist these three folks in the new guides.

[Tom_Doak]

So Darius is a tough rater and Ran is a little easier.  That’s just fine.  Love the diversity in having the 4 opinions.

Yes, I agree.  If everybody gave the same grades I did, it would be pointless having help.  And there are plenty of courses with four 7's or four 6's ... but then a few which Ran will rate a point higher, or Darius a point lower, and that helps sort them out a bit more.


It's amazing how people worry so much about us giving different grades, but when you just average our grades with a bunch of other nincompoops and publish a ranking, readers swallow it whole! 😀

[Mike_Young]

I don't think it matters how you rank their "top 10".  Just ask yourself how many living architects even have 10 courses with their name on them...    

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