Mike Strantz vs Time

[John Kavanaugh]

Could Strantz be called a poor mans Jim Engh? I've always had fun playing a Jim Engh course.

[JC Urbina]

Pete Pallotta


Thank you, the notion that the two times are different is true but I think that the term TIME is interwoven in golf course design. Was Mike ahead of his time, were his first golf courses quickly dismissed by some as too bold, as Mike evolved did his true artistry and the finer nuances of his golf courses like MPCC become more easily understood?


I appreciate your efforts in the descriptions of Greek Time,  I think they are a part of what I have been wanting to discuss further.  I just found that John K's posting was timely and that only over time the value of talking about Mikes courses seem to now resonate in GC Architecture circles.


Alister Mackenzies time line is complete.  Coore and Crenshaw's contribution to the world of design is still evolving and only time will tell what legacy they will leave on all of us.


So, it my opinion Time not only plays a role in the evolution of a single design it also plays a role in the evolution of many designs, we are now in the era of very natural looking layouts, a far departure from the 70 and 80s manufactured look.


Mammoth Dunes, Sand Valley are both wonderfully done, were Stonehouse and Royal New Kent way ahead of the times?


What will the next evolution in golf course design bring us, only TIME will tell!

[Tim Gavrich]

Could Strantz be called a poor mans Jim Engh? I've always had fun playing a Jim Engh course.

Reynolds Creek Club is the only Engh course I've played, but it's also the only course I've played other than Tobacco Road that is a real and earnest challenge to some core GCA conventions (Streamsong Black also does this, though in a different way), particularly about the relationship between where an off-line shot lands and where it ends up, and how courses should generally look. Tobacco Road is the more important work because it came first and is accessible by all.


There may be some elements of Victoria National that you enjoy because of Mike Strantz.

[John Kavanaugh]

I can't deny that Tobacco Rd. and Victoria National were both built on the cusp of a new world. 2001 changed everything.


it's no small compliment to consider that Tobacco Rd. may have been the start of one movement while Victoria was the end of another.

[JESII]

Whichever of Mike’s courses remain in 2050 will be more highly regarded than they are today...


Maintenance demands are likely to neuter them all to some extent but those best preserved will shine because they’re unique and really good...especially as walking is less required.

[John Kavanaugh]

Whichever of Mike’s courses remain in 2050 will be more highly regarded than they are today...


Maintenance demands are likely to neuter them all to some extent but those best preserved will shine because they’re unique and really good...especially as walking is less required.

So you believe that in the future walking will be seen as even more gausche than today?  That should benefit Strantz's legacy. I know that when I showed up at Tobacco Rd. with a caddie I was seriously WTF'ed.

[JESII]

Let’s put it this way, do you think he thought about walkability when he designed Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent? Neither do I.


I’m assuming your caddy was WTF’ing you big time pretty early in that round...jesus.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'll be in the minority, I think, on how Tobacco Road actually plays.

I think it's a great course to see once or twice. Get lots of photos. Enjoy the heck out of it. Even be goaded into going for a lot of stuff you shouldn't. But the second or third or at least by the fourth time you play there, the course should reveal itself to be pretty simple. It's a pretty easy course to play.

Keep in mind, pro, that you are a pro, pro. The rest of us are not.We don't think nor execute like you.

If ever I travel to the sandhills, I play ToeRoad, Mid Pines, Dormie (if accessible) and Southern Pines. Those are standards, as they are brilliant.

[Ronald Montesano]

It's a battle we all lose. How about his work?


A tour of True Blue. https://www.truebluegolf.com/scorecard/

I love that JK has embraced technology and will soon be sharing photos from courses he has played. That's what I read into "A tour of True Blue"  In all seriousness, I think that we will lose that sh!!tty course in Williamsburg, but we should keep TR, RNK, BB, MPCCS, C, TB and that is one hell of a six-pack. I love Strantz. I believe that his courses will stand the test of time. If not for the final three holes at THF, I would love that course. It seems like someone dropped a trio of boring holes onto the end of that course. No idea how that happened. The land is certainly malleable enough to have created something unique.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't get the anger. Upon doing a bit of research I see that Golfweek named Strantz as one of the top ten architects of all time. This was the year 2000. Who were the other nine?

[Kyle Harris]

If there's one thing where a little time would have probably assisted in Mike Strantz's legacy it's in construction and engineering.


To a tee, the "dirt guys" see Tobacco Road or Tot Hill Farm as utter disasters of drainage.


I haven't played any others so can't comment.

[JESII]

Kyle, while I haven't had that conversation with any "dirt guys",  that type of critique is one I expect to clean up for him...I think we'd all be foolish to assume a course on opening day should, will be, it's lasting legacy.

[Joe Hancock]

Kyle, while I haven't had that conversation with any "dirt guys",  that type of critique is one I expect to clean up for him...I think we'd all be foolish to assume a course on opening day should, will be, it's lasting legacy.

I think what Kyle may be alluding to is that there are designs that utilize drainage vs. designs that are dependant upon drainage. Think of it this way: If there is a swale that is slopes to a pond 200 feet away from the center of the fairway, an architect may chose to capture some of that water in a drain so the surface water doesn’t have to run so far. Conversely, another architect may chose to build a big bowl, guaranteeing the water has to go in a drain. The difference is on multiple levels, not the least of which all engineered drain systems have a shelf life...they will fail at some point. Maintaining natural drainage patterns guarantees an “out”.

[Jeff_Brauer]

It is often true that very artistic designers are weaker at drainage engineering, and vice versa.  Even just considering the architecture (in the real world, you can't) I love Strantz courses, but just the chatter I hear from good players is they suffer a bit in playability factors.  Examples include his wildly shaped greens, as players seem to favor something more traditional there, even if the perimeters of them are vastly different than seen elsewhere.


Long term, I feel that type of thing will contribute to keeping them as cult courses, revered by a few.  His early death would probably contribute to that as well.

[Michael Whitaker]

Jeff - is “playability factors” code for “fairness?”

[Sean_A]

If there's one thing where a little time would have probably assisted in Mike Strantz's legacy it's in construction and engineering.

To a tee, the "dirt guys" see Tobacco Road or Tot Hill Farm as utter disasters of drainage.

I haven't played any others so can't comment.

I haven't been to TR in some time, but I certainly thought the course was too wet.  I put much of that down to heavy watering, though one time I could see trapped puddles after a rainy day...I was a bit surprised.  I am told the course is kept much drier...I assume this is down to less watering. Being on sand, can the shaping of TR be sort of anti-drainage?  Won't nature do its thing fairly quickly anyway?

Ciao     

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff - is “playability factors” code for “fairness?”

Not really, IMHO.  Or put it this way, they like targets they can play to, and will accept all the punishment in the world if they miss.  If the target is goofy - like too narrow for the shot, they won't like it.  See the recent thread on every shot counts, there is a statistical size they need to be to reasonably be hit.


Now, that said, not all Strantz greens are wildly shaped, but my thought is just a few might be enough to turn raters off over the long term.  As some others have noted, perhaps MS courses are ones that will have more trouble staying preserved.  At least in my experience, wild and artistic, but hard to play or maintain features eventually get altered at all but the most iconic courses.  Given some of his courses have already sold, etc., I don't think they are iconic enough in the biz (outside of architecture buffs like us).


As always, I could be wrong....in fact, based on history, probably am!

[JESII]

Kyle, while I haven't had that conversation with any "dirt guys",  that type of critique is one I expect to clean up for him...I think we'd all be foolish to assume a course on opening day should, will be, it's lasting legacy.

I think what Kyle may be alluding to is that there are designs that utilize drainage vs. designs that are dependant upon drainage. Think of it this way: If there is a swale that is slopes to a pond 200 feet away from the center of the fairway, an architect may chose to capture some of that water in a drain so the surface water doesn’t have to run so far. Conversely, another architect may chose to build a big bowl, guaranteeing the water has to go in a drain. The difference is on multiple levels, not the least of which all engineered drain systems have a shelf life...they will fail at some point. Maintaining natural drainage patterns guarantees an “out”.

Thanks Joe...so I'm clear, we're saying those two courses (at least) were built without enough "out"?

[Michael Whitaker]

Strantz’ SC courses have settled in very nicely. True Blue was softened a bit a couple of years after it opened, but I don’t see any issues going forward. Caledonia and Bulls Bay are solidly fixed in their presentation. All three are maturing just as one would hope.


I’ve heard about drainage issues at TR , but have not experienced it personally. I did notice that they had installed very wide narrow drains across the front of the first green which were in the line of play. Didn’t like that too much.

[Jay Mickle]

The drainage criticism I have heard were about not using natural land flow to remove water rather incorporating large central bowl areas to drain the course. While this is true and not approved of by some purists it seems to me that this was all in keeping with his design philosophy for TR wherein offline shots funnelled toward the middle of the fairway thereby making the course play easier than it looked.

[Tommy Williamsen]

JC - re your post, if you don't mind a semi-aside:

The Greeks had two terms for (and conceptions of) Time -- Kairos was used to refer to the natural/proper time for an event or action (including internal subjective events like the time it takes to make a major -- and wise -- decision)...and they recognized that Kairos didn't always align with or fit into the demands of the other term/conception, ie Chronos, from where we get the word chronological and that refers to 'clock time', to the passing of time day after day and year after year. 

And the Greeks made this distinction, being the ancient Greeks, because they wanted to distinguish the ever fleeting and ever changing things of this world (Chronos) from the internal processes involved in something like making a major decision (Kairos), which they saw as so deeply a personal/subjective process, one so tied to the individual human 'soul', that for them it qualified as eternal.
 
Which is to say: I think the kind of 'time' you're talking about, the kind of time an architect might take in letting the site show/tell him what kind of course it wants to be and in weighing so many different options/possibilities because he cares very much about doing his very best, is Kairos. Whereas John seems to be talking more about Chronos, the fleeting changing tastes over the years that might make what was once popular and 'good' back then considered less so today....or the same kind of time that might make a client ask an architect to hurry up, to take less time.

I suppose that's why there are tensions and conflicts sometimes between the client and the architect, i.e. because one is living in/on Chronos and the things of this world, while the other is trying to honour Kairos, and to put (golf in) The Kingdom first and foremost.   

Two very valid approaches to/understanding of Time, of course -- which are also two very valid understandings of/value-systems for life; but for my tastes and temperament Kairos is where it's at, and what it's all about, and what I'm most interested in. 

Peter

Good grief Peter, that's the kind of stuff I do in sermons.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Let’s put it this way, do you think he thought about walkability when he designed Tobacco Road or Royal New Kent? Neither do I.


I’m assuming your caddy was WTF’ing you big time pretty early in that round...jesus.

The first time I played TR I went out with "Forest Fezzler who helped with the design. We both threw clubs over shoulders and walked. I have played RNK three times. Walked all three times. Now the walks weren't easy and I was much younger. There were a few green to tee walks that we long.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played all of his work except Bull's Bay. Throw out Stonehouse, which is closed and Tot Hill Farm, which I disliked, he is one of the most creative minds of the last twenty-five years. Some of his holes are controversial, but I think every course should have a couple of those. I like seeing holes that I've never seen anywhere. He has a bunch of them. I think time will be good to him, though I fully expect some of the holes to be softened.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'll be in the minority, I think, on how Tobacco Road actually plays.

I think it's a great course to see once or twice. Get lots of photos. Enjoy the heck out of it. Even be goaded into going for a lot of stuff you shouldn't. But the second or third or at least by the fourth time you play there, the course should reveal itself to be pretty simple. It's a pretty easy course to play.

Keep in mind, pro, that you are a pro, pro. The rest of us are not. We don't think nor execute like you.

If ever I travel to the sandhills, I play ToeRoad, Mid Pines, Dormie (if accessible) and Southern Pines. Those are standards, as they are brilliant.

I know. But you can think like me at any level - you can play to the safe, wide areas of the golf course. You can resist temptation. You can resist being goaded into things. The second time I played there, the three guys I was with were students of mine and I talked them through their shots. All shot differentials that were in the top 10% of their last 20 differentials without having seen the course before, because they simply played to the wide open areas. They appreciated the photos, and could see how they'd easily be drawn to going for shots they have no business trying had I not been helping them.

Not that there's anything wrong with that kind of golf. It's just not the kind of golf that I find interesting. The goading is SO over the top it's easy to ignore, because the penalties are SO severe. I'm not a big fan of Tobacco Road. That's fine if it puts me in the minority. I see it as a lot of flash and sizzle with less substance. I'm a big fan of Caledonia. Even of True Blue. More solid tests of golf, less flash/sizzle, with more meat.

P.S. It might be a perfect resort type course. Maybe most players like that WANT to be goaded, because even if they only pull off one shot out of ten "goadings," they'll remember that one and it'll make their day, despite the 93 they shot because 9 out of 10 times they ended up taking a triple or something. It's just not for me. It's a bit boring strategically for me.

[Kyle Harris]

My comment is to be framed in the context that with more time, perhaps Strantz would have honed his philosophy a bit around such criticism. His passing was ill-timed in the sense that a ton of shaping talent available had yet to get established in the field.


I think it's reasonable that Mike would have survived the construction downturn post 2008.