[John Kavanaugh]

A professional couple, the Pillers, play a similar game unheard of in the history of sport. Your average high school stand out hits the ball as far as a top 100 professional. A 60 year old clinically obese gentleman is capable of playing tour stops from the tips and have a great time.


Men, women, professionals, kids and old men all playing the same game. Have we ever had it better?


How much of this utopia is a direct result of modern architecture promoting the ground game. Being the old man in the equation give me some wind and I'll put my five wood from 207 against anyones 8 iron from 157. It's basically the same swing that works on a perfectly designed hole. That simply was not the case 30 years ago.

[Tom_Doak]

JOHN:


When I lived in the U.K. 35 years ago, I played with plenty of older men who could beat you like a drum with their 5-wood and an up & down.  Their friends called them "bandits".


I think there were even a few of them in the USA back then, but I agree that firm and fast fairways are a boon to them.  As for equipment, there were plenty of bandits in the age of persimmon woods.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,


If there becomes an equipment roll back or bifurcation do you think lesser minded architects will go back to defending the front of the green?

[Peter Pallotta]

There are nearly a dozen courses built in the 60s and 70s within 45 minutes of my house -- and not a single one 'defends the front of the green'. Of course, they were all designed-built by architects almost no one has ever heard of. Which is to suggest: in every era, the great architects and the humble ones do the same kind of good, playable and timeless work; it's the middling & ambitious try-hards enamoured of fame & the flavour of the month who'd cause the problems.

[John Kavanaugh]

There are nearly a dozen courses built in the 60s and 70s within 45 minutes of my house -- and not a single one 'defends the front of the green'. Of course, they were all designed-built by architects almost no one has ever heard of. Which is to suggest: in every era, the great architects and the humble ones do the same kind of good, playable and timeless work; it's the middling & ambitious try-hards enamoured of fame & the flavour of the month who'd cause the problems.

So you are denying that the aerial game is or was a product of architecture?

[John Kavanaugh]

I will go so far to say that the modern ground game is a product of the lengthening of courses due to modern equipment. The architect was left little choice.

[Mike Hendren]

I will go so far to say that the modern ground game is a product of the lengthening of courses due to modern equipment. The architect was left little choice.

Only for you self-styled "skilled players."

[Thomas Dai]

How much of this utopia is a direct result of modern architecture promoting the ground game.

Promoting the ground game has been a theme now for what, say 20-30 yrs. Seems like rather a lot of courses were built prior to the promoting the ground game phase.
‘Bandit’ UK old guys beating folks like a drum with a 5-wood and an up-n-down. I well remember those days. They still exist. Folks who’ve retired early and play 3-4-5-6 times a week. They’re now called ‘Seniors’!
Atb

[Rick Lane]

Are we back to the future?   Didn't more of the golden age courses have a ground game, than say, JN designs from the 80's that favored a high cut approach?  I play a 1929 Tillinghast that is wide open in front of most of the greens, and in fact played with a 76 year old this past weekend who lit me up bouncing five woods into them!   You guys are all knowledgeable about Links courses in Great Britain, isn't there more ground game there too?     

[JMEvensky]

Isn't a ground game option as much maintenance as architecture?

[John Kavanaugh]

Isn't a ground game option as much maintenance as architecture?

Not so much from 200 yds. The ground game is the only option and given the number of woods and hybrids most of us carry we can control the roll out through almost any condition. But we can not carry and stop anything from 200 under any condition. That is if we have my other favorite product of modern life....fast greens.


You see, fast greens also promote the ground game.

[JMEvensky]

You see, fast greens also promote the ground game.

Agreed--but aren't fast greens more maintenance than architecture?

[John Kavanaugh]

Sure, but slow fairways and fast greens are far more common than fast fairways and slow greens. At least since the invention of modern irrigation. Irrigation is one modern element that I wish had never been introduced.

[Kalen Braley]

Sure, but slow fairways and fast greens are far more common than fast fairways and slow greens. At least since the invention of modern irrigation. Irrigation is one modern element that I wish had never been introduced.

Barney,


How many viable courses would the US have without irrigation?  Maybe 10% of what is has now?  Unless you're advocating playing the other 90% off dirt  4-5 months of the year and spotty fairways the rest of the time...

[John Kavanaugh]

Please don't make me defend the clear fact that courses in the US are over irrigated. I thought we all agreed on that.

[Kalen Braley]

Please don't make me defend the clear fact that courses in the US are over irrigated. I thought we all agreed on that.

John, please don't make me explain why no irrigation at all is far far worse for most courses in the US... 

P.S. Nothing to agree on there, that's based on climate facts.

[John Kavanaugh]

Not true. Natural ground cover grows almost everywhere humans live and play. You only need to irrigate plants that are introduced. I grew up on unirrigated fairways and had no problem hitting 300 yd drives in 1976. Your facts are amazingly off. Perhaps 10% of courses could not exist and that is only because they are built in the desert.


As a matter of fact there is a direct correlation between courses getting wetter and clubs getting longer.

[JMEvensky]

As a matter of fact there is a direct correlation between courses getting wetter and clubs getting longer.

This might be just a post hoc fallacy but it sure as hell rings true.

[Kalen Braley]

Barney,

That's a fantastic idea.  Why don't you take your idea to the "desert locale" of Monterey, CA where they average less than a quarter inch of rain per month for 5 months (May thru September) and tell em to shut the spigots off! 

[Kalen Braley]

..

[Peter Pallotta]

J -
the aerial game seems to have been introduced not on modest courses (by regional architects) like the ones near my home, but instead by the days' more renowned architects working on high-end public & private courses -- and ironically, introduced at the very time that the average golfer was least equipped to handle that type of game. Equally ironic is that today, with all the agronomic and technological advantages the average golfer enjoys, there seems nary an 'aerial game' to be found on any of the top/high end new designs.
Of course, I might be wrong about all this.
Peter

PS - so, yes, I suppose you're right: the game at fancy places has never been as inclusive.

[John Kavanaugh]

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/holen/page/2003may11-20.pdf


The above is a nice history of irrigation. For those who don't want to read the entire article I pulled out the saddest development below. It speaks for itself.





Once the Second World War ended, outdoor recreation and golf accelerated. The turfgrass irrigation industry boomed, since grass on all natural playing surfaces had to be watered. Completely automatic irrigation systems were available after the war, but converting quick-coupler sys- tems did not gain momentum until the 1960s and 1970s.

[Terry Lavin]

I will go so far to say that the modern ground game is a product of the lengthening of courses due to modern equipment. The architect was left little choice.

Provocative but credible overstatement.  This is the essence of thread propagation and sustenance.

[Peter Pallotta]

Provocative but credible overstatement.  This is the essence of thread propagation and sustenance.

I'd never thought of that. You are absolutely right! And, you manage to be truly credible while resorting to neither provocation nor overstatement -- as evidence by this (i.e. my) thread propagation.  (I don't say actual 'sustenance'.) Like I heard people say when I was a kid: "Hey, you really came to *work* today". 

[John Kavanaugh]

Revelations that come through experience evolve into fact upon repetition.

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