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Jerry Kluger

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What is a good fairway bunker?
« on: November 02, 2018, 05:14:45 PM »
I have seen all types of fairway bunkers but the primary issue is whether it should be deep and only allow for a lofted club to be played a short distance or should it be one that allows the player to make an aggressive recovery shot. To me it is frustrating when there are no options for a recovery shot from a fairway bunker. What do you think?

Michael Whitaker

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2018, 05:28:00 PM »
I think you would be very frustrated on most links courses!  ;D
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Emerson

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2018, 05:46:47 PM »
I have seen all types of fairway bunkers but the primary issue is whether it should be deep and only allow for a lofted club to be played a short distance or should it be one that allows the player to make an aggressive recovery shot. To me it is frustrating when there are no options for a recovery shot from a fairway bunker. What do you think?


There is always an option.  First option...don’t hit it in there.  Second option...pitch it out sideways back to fairway
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2018, 07:27:04 PM »
A good fairway bunker is simply one that makes golfers think before they swing ... or lures them into not thinking!


If it doesn't matter whether you go in the bunker or not, because it's still an easy recovery shot, why would you think about it?

Rob Rigg

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2018, 08:15:05 PM »
A good fairway bunker is simply one that makes golfers think before they swing ... or lures them into not thinking!


If it doesn't matter whether you go in the bunker or not, because it's still an easy recovery shot, why would you think about it?
100%
That's why forebunkers can be so fascinating and effective. They can make you think, even if the bunkers aren't truly in play!
Centerline bunkers are similarly awesome because they are in your grill making the gears spin as opposed to off to the side where a poor drive would end up.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2018, 08:18:34 PM »
Good fairway bunkers are the easiest way to change a hole from checkers to chess.

WW

Joe Hancock

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2018, 08:57:06 PM »
Then there’s the whole “variety” thing; fairway bunkers should vary in complexity and difficulty based on other factors, like the flow of the routing, topography, depth perception, etc. Once you try to cookie-cutter any part of the course, you take a giant step away from greatness.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2018, 09:54:08 PM »
Joe - only a bit related to your post:

I had an interesting experience this past summer. I played 2 courses (about 3 times each) that had not a single fairway bunker between them. Both courses were of the modest parkland variety: not long, quite wide & forgiving, tree-lined, and with very little in the way of undulations or elevation changes. I ended up having two distinct reactions to these bunker-less courses:

On the one hand, I don't remember on either course ever thinking "This hole could use a bunker right about here/there". But on the other hand, by the 2nd time around both courses I was constantly thinking "Oh for goodness' sakes, put a damn bunker in there *someplace*, will you -- please, any place at all, of any kind, but *something*!"

I can't quite figure out why I had those two totally opposite (and apparently mutually exclusive) thoughts.

Peter   
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 09:59:58 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2018, 02:47:32 AM »
For me a bunker is only as good as the context of the entire course.  On its own, a bunker may be good, but if the bunker is repeated too often it is less good because less thinking is required to cope with it.

Good fairway bunkers are better when used sparingly.  Sometimes, a good fairway bunker is no bunker...imo...more often than not this is should be the case. 

A good fairway bunker is a harsh bunker, one where recovery in one shot can be in serious doubt.  Sorry Jerry. I fail to see the point of an easy recovery bunker...just use another feature if that is the goal.

Finally, balance of placement makes for good fairway bunkers. We can talk about strategic VS penal, but everything along the spectrum is good if a good balance is struck.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jerry Kluger

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2018, 06:50:10 AM »
How should the architect determine whether a deep bunker allowing only for the golfer only to use a high lofted club to get out should be used versus one which is not so deep and allows for a longer club and possibly reaching the green or an ideal layup location on a par 5?

Jon Wiggett

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2018, 06:55:49 AM »
A good fairway bunker is the same as any other good hazard. It fulfils a purpose.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2018, 07:06:17 AM »
Jon: How does the architect decide on what its purpose should be - it can be a hazard that forces the golfer to aim away from it or it can be the type that the golfer can decide that it is worth the risk as it is possible to recover from a shot that winds up in the bunker.


You are adding a feature so while you are at it do you shape the fairway so balls roll into the bunker?


Perhaps the worst design I have ever seen from an agronomy viewpoint is at a Fazio course in Wake Forest, NC.  All of the bunkers have zoysia grass around them - the rest of the course is bermuda - and the zoysia grows much faster than the other grasses and is very difficult to keep at a reasonable length so balls hit towards bunkers do not roll in and wind up in grass that at times is at least 6 inches deep which makes finding a ball extremely difficult. I don't know why the course was planted that way but they need to remove the zoysia and they know it but the company that owns the course doesn't want to spend the money.

Niall C

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2018, 07:48:58 AM »
Jerry

What Tom D says plus there should always be an element of chance in terms of the shot you get. Yes, there is nothing finer than a really good recovery shot, especially out of a bunker but you shouldn't be guaranteed the opportunity of playing that shot.

I had the pleasure recently of meeting a well known Scottish greenkeeper of yesteryear who was lamenting what he saw on television of balls going into bunkers and because the sand was so tightly packed the ball basically rolled down the face of the bunker to a level lie in the middle. IMO he's quite right. That said, I wouldn't go as far as my brother who advocates doing a way with raking bunkers and making them proper hazards  ;D

Niall

Thomas Dai

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2018, 08:27:29 AM »
I recall a comment on GCA a few years that went along the lines of “a good fairway bunker is located exactly where the golfer would like to position their tee shot.” A generalisation perhaps, but one with some merit.
Atb

Mark_Fine

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2018, 08:42:44 AM »
Lots of great responses here.  The recovery shot can be one of the most exciting shots in the game.  That said, bunkers are hazards or at least they are supposed to be. 


The comment I hear quite often is that golfers/members "always" want to have a chance to reach the green if the end up in a fairway bunker.  I totally disagree.  That should vary from bunker to bunker as well as within individual bunkers.   As someone already pointed out about pot bunkers on a links course - depending on where you are in that bunker, sometimes you are just lucky to escape in one shot. 

Furthermore, good fairway bunkers can (should) have all kinds of purposes.  They can tempt, deter, challenge, confuse, appeal, save, aim,...,the list goes on.  The best ones need to be dealt with and should get the golfers attention. 


I also have a pet peeve about fairway bunkers that allow golf shots to run through them.  Every once in a while maybe a shot gets lucky and bounces through but most should be designed to contain the golf ball.  I also don't like "fairway" bunkers that are completely surrounded by rough.  I call them rough bunkers. 


While there is no exact definition for a "good fairway bunker", the topic is great and one that should be covered in a good book  ;)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 08:45:47 AM by Mark_Fine »

John Emerson

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2018, 01:08:14 PM »
Jon: How does the architect decide on what its purpose should be - it can be a hazard that forces the golfer to aim away from it or it can be the type that the golfer can decide that it is worth the risk as it is possible to recover from a shot that winds up in the bunker.


You are adding a feature so while you are at it do you shape the fairway so balls roll into the bunker?


Perhaps the worst design I have ever seen from an agronomy viewpoint is at a Fazio course in Wake Forest, NC.  All of the bunkers have zoysia grass around them - the rest of the course is bermuda - and the zoysia grows much faster than the other grasses and is very difficult to keep at a reasonable length so balls hit towards bunkers do not roll in and wind up in grass that at times is at least 6 inches deep which makes finding a ball extremely difficult. I don't know why the course was planted that way but they need to remove the zoysia and they know it but the company that owns the course doesn't want to spend the money.
I disagree and agree at the same time.  Zoysia is great grass for bunker faces.  But, with that said it needs different inputs.  Yes it can grow longer and become penal so the superintendent needs to address the growth rate.  There are several growth regulators available to address the faster growth.  If this isn’t addressed then we have the situation you just discussed.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2018, 04:56:25 PM »
Jon: How does the architect decide on what its purpose should be - it can be a hazard that forces the golfer to aim away from it or it can be the type that the golfer can decide that it is worth the risk as it is possible to recover from a shot that winds up in the bunker.


You are adding a feature so while you are at it do you shape the fairway so balls roll into the bunker?


Perhaps the worst design I have ever seen from an agronomy viewpoint is at a Fazio course in Wake Forest, NC.  All of the bunkers have zoysia grass around them - the rest of the course is bermuda - and the zoysia grows much faster than the other grasses and is very difficult to keep at a reasonable length so balls hit towards bunkers do not roll in and wind up in grass that at times is at least 6 inches deep which makes finding a ball extremely difficult. I don't know why the course was planted that way but they need to remove the zoysia and they know it but the company that owns the course doesn't want to spend the money.



Jerry,


how does the architect decide!!!!!! is that really a serious question? I would suggest it is the architects job to decide a bunkers purpose and the players to decide how to deal with it.


Jon

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2018, 06:12:25 PM »
 Since golfers keep hitting it farther off the tee I think Flynn has the right idea. First make sure you can see it so that means placing it not for punishment but to give one an idea of how to play the hole.
 The best bunker doesn’t need to be moved. It also follows Joe’s desire for variety since the land will dictate different looks all around the course.






 
AKA Mayday

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2018, 10:20:11 AM »
Wouldn't the overall length of the hole have something to do with the decision of how penal a fairway bunker should be?

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2018, 02:24:07 PM »
I recall a comment on GCA a few years that went along the lines of “a good fairway bunker is located exactly where the golfer would like to position their tee shot.” A generalisation perhaps, but one with some merit.
Atb


Apocryphal stories abound of James Braid designing courses without fairway bunkers and telling clubs to wait a year...




... and then placing bunkers where all the divots are concentrated.




Sounds like a plan to me.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2018, 05:09:45 PM »
So an architect designs a hole and at some point he determines that there should be a fairway bunker but what factors does he use to determine the type of bunker it will be?  I would imagine length of hole, hazards between that bunker and the green, etc. but does he also look at how difficult he wants to make the hole based on its position in the round or maybe how difficult the other holes are on the course, or am I overthinking this question?

Joe Hancock

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2018, 07:39:26 PM »
Jerry,


I don’t think you are over-thinking the question, but it has already been answered. If you’re looking for a specific answer for every situation, you won’t get it. Each architect is going to address the question with their own right answer, which takes us back to variety......
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2018, 08:27:06 PM »
So an architect designs a hole and at some point he determines that there should be a fairway bunker but what factors does he use to determine the type of bunker it will be?  I would imagine length of hole, hazards between that bunker and the green, etc. but does he also look at how difficult he wants to make the hole based on its position in the round or maybe how difficult the other holes are on the course, or am I overthinking this question?


I'm sure Jeff B. has a long checklist to answer this question for each bunker he builds, but I do not, and I suspect lots of other architects are somewhat haphazard [ha!] on this topic.


If I don't want other people making rules for me, why would I make a bunch of rules for myself?


Actually, at the very start of my career, I had decided that my trademark would be to have one hole on each course with a bunker in the middle of the fairway.  I did that on the 2nd hole at High Pointe, the 5th at The Legends (Heathland), and the 16th at Black Forest.  But then when we were building Stonewall I didn't think it made sense to have a bunker like that on a classic parkland course, so I ended my streak at three.


Truthfully, I think we'd be better off if more architects had more heuristics about when NOT to build a fairway bunker, and kept them to a minimum.  Perry Maxwell was not a big believer in fairway bunkers . . . Crystal Downs' first seven holes have lots of bunkers because Dr. MacKenzie came by to see those, but once he left Maxwell didn't put any fairway bunkers on the 8th, 10th, 12th, 16th, 17th, or 18th.  And not one guest of mine has ever noted the difference.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2018, 10:48:24 AM »

As Mark Fine notes, fw sand bunkers are built for a variety of reasons, and along the lines of TD's comments, I like to build fw sand bunkers only if they provide more than one service, including hazard (for someone) plus one other attribute, like aiming, saving, etc.  That limits the total number of FW bunkers, unless the developer adds "sells real estate from adjacent lots" which can add up in a hurry.


I don't have a along checklist, but after many years of decision making, long flights and time to think, etc., it would be hard not to develop some idea of how a fw bunker should best challenge golfers.  I have stated it before, but good players (and strategic, thinking players) probably wouldn't challenge a bunker unless they thought they had at least a 50-50% chance of a recovery shot to the green, and most would favor a 2 to 1 probable ratio of success.  So, at least for the edge of the bunker facing the green, I would propose depth and slope that falls in those ranges, knowing that the random shape of bunkers makes it impossible to attain any particular statistic.

I also recall that Ross wrote that the fw side of a fw bunker should offer less penalty than the far side, which is only found by a worse shot, whereas a pretty good shot could just roll in the inside edge of a bunker.  The old proportional penalty argument, mentioned only because there is another thread proposing randomness for bunkers.  Most designers would shy away from total randomness, believing it has little place in the form follows function design world.  When you consider owning a course, speed of play, maintenance costs, etc. it sort of steers you to placing bunkers that see an adequate amount of play, mostly (but not exclusively) from better players. Obviously, this is less of a factor on the design of destination resorts that can charge enough to cover the costs and it is part of the allure of playing something you don't see at home.  But, for the every day course, it is a factor.

As I think I have related, a shaper once asked how deep a fw bunker should be, and I made the pithy statement  that it should be 1 foot deep for every iron you expect average players to hit, i.e., 9 iron, 9 feet deep.  Of course, that was a flat site and easier to do.  It generally mimics a long held and often written general rule of thumb that the closer to the green, the deeper bunkers can be.  Later, someone pointed out that the real governing number would be the loft of the club you think average players hit - if a 9 iron has 46 degrees, the front face should be about maximum 45 degrees (about 1 to 1 slope) whereas long irons need more gradual slope at the top edge.  Again, it would take a square bunker and flat face to achieve anything like that, so it is something I just generally check to see if I think I (as a decidedly average golfer) would be tempted to aim right at the green and hope to get there. 


Similarly, it is difficult to put a large carry bunker right of the first or tenth tees because the context of the location - too likely to slow play.  That said, I did exactly that (albeit with a protected wetland) off the first and tenth at Legends of Giant's Ridge, more because I had to than wanted to.  Site context also matters, and on sites where water hazards are prevalent, I would be more likely to build recoverable sand bunkers so that not all fw hazards were full shot penalties to provide some variety.

In the end, if I choose to locate a sand bunker in a 10 foot high slope, it usually ends up being about ten foot deep, etc. I dislike raising the floor of a bunker to attain any particular depth.  I have seen that on a few Ross courses, such as White Bear 10, which I attribute (not really knowing) to him using some standard plan in the office where he notes things like sand bunker -5 from green surface, etc.  The construction guys might have just been following the plans.


And, as also noted by others, nothing wrong with a few fw bunkers that are deeper, although I hesitate to go too shallow.  If a golfer sees a real deep bunker, that affects strategy, too, although in general, I think they force too conservative play from anyone who actually thinks about the possible affects on score.   I also tend to make them deeper on par 5 tee shot landing zones, because finding it still allows reaching the green in regulation, so no big loss, and on the last few holes, where only success matters, and failure of any kind theoretically leads to loss of match anyway.


Like I say, it would be hard to be in this business and not having considered the question posed in the OP.  While the answer is obviously theoretical, and often thrown right out the window for site specific conditions, I have always thought it made sense to understand each bunker in the context of what/how you really want it to play, and work from there.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 10:57:52 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: What is a good fairway bunker?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2018, 10:55:14 AM »
If we add drainage issues/considerations into this discussion about bunker depth it could get much more complicated  ;)

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