[Sean_A]

No Kalen.


I’m refuting Mr Carlton who believes members guests should pay for free and Mr Arble who thinks his mates should play for less than the discount you describe.

Ahh OK, Glad to have mis-understood! 


Perhaps we should posit a question to the group.  Has anyone left a club because the accompanied guest fee was too high?

Yes. We lost a group this year to Cumberwell funnily enough. They are a fairly money consious group as golfers though several of them are millionaires. A few of the group just pay a guest fee as they only play 10-15 rounds a year, they had everything worked out to the penny. It has been brought up by the membership that our guest fee is too high but it is a big earner so why do I want to drop it.

Adrian  precisely, why would you want to drop the fee when you are a business? Members are a secondary consideration to profit. Both Niall and me have been referencing member owned clubs. What proprietary clubs do is a completely different subject 


Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

I have so far welcomed three guests at different times to Cavendish. Our guest fee is £15.

All three have subsequently expressed an interest in Country Membership.

At a time when the majority of clubs are short of members, I would have thought that encouraging guest play was an important factor in attracting potential new blood.

If a club is not short of members, it can probably well afford to offer cheap guest play as a perk while loading the standard green fee.

I am in favour of Cavendish increasing the standard green fee from £35 to £50. It is always then possible to discount society play, off-peak times etc. I would far rather discount from £50 to £35 than from £35 to £25 as at present. I believe we have a course well worthy of a £50 green fee. More importantly, we are a "destination" course and are not surrounded by 20 other courses within 5 miles all competing for the same 100 cheapskate vagabond golfers.

I would still look at a guest fee of say £20 as a useful tool in driving member recruitment, however. People tend to go where their friends are. If someone were to play as a guest every week it would still cost them more than it would as a member. It would make sense to join for financial reasons alone, never mind all the other benefits.

Being introduced to a club by a member is the biggest source of new recruits.

[Steve Lang]

   Duncan,


What were guest fees at Reddish Vale when I visited couple years ago?  Seems the dozen balls and souvenir hat were each more than 15 quid at the pro shop!


s

[Adrian_Stiff]

No Kalen.


I’m refuting Mr Carlton who believes members guests should pay for free and Mr Arble who thinks his mates should play for less than the discount you describe.

Ahh OK, Glad to have mis-understood! 


Perhaps we should posit a question to the group.  Has anyone left a club because the accompanied guest fee was too high?

Yes. We lost a group this year to Cumberwell funnily enough. They are a fairly money consious group as golfers though several of them are millionaires. A few of the group just pay a guest fee as they only play 10-15 rounds a year, they had everything worked out to the penny. It has been brought up by the membership that our guest fee is too high but it is a big earner so why do I want to drop it.

Adrian  precisely, why would you want to drop the fee when you are a business? Members are a secondary consideration to profit. Both Niall and me have been referencing member owned clubs. What proprietary clubs do is a completely different subject 


Ciao

They should still act like business's IMO. The profits are just redistributed in a different way.

[Duncan Cheslett]

  Duncan,


What were guest fees at Reddish Vale when I visited couple years ago?  Seems the dozen balls and souvenir hat were each more than 15 quid at the pro shop!


s

From memory, £13.50

Your balls and hat would undoubtedly have cost more than that.

 

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,


you hit the point that I think Niall is also talking about. A classic members' club is run by the members for the members with the wishes of the members as its main focal point. It needs to break even financially but does not need to make a profit.


The sort of operation you are running is a commercial one where the business or club is run to make a profit. Clearly it is in the interest of the business to offer a service that the yearly ticket holders want but in the end they are treated as clients not members so the ethos is different.


Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,


you hit the point that I think Niall is also talking about. A classic members' club is run by the members for the members with the wishes of the members as its main focal point. It needs to break even financially but does not need to make a profit.


The sort of operation you are running is a commercial one where the business or club is run to make a profit. Clearly it is in the interest of the business to offer a service that the yearly ticket holders want but in the end they are treated as clients not members so the ethos is different.


Jon

I absolutely don't agree that they should be run that differently. The only difference is the profit distribution. With a members club the profits are distributed back to the membership (not by dividends) but by lower subscription fees, they should in my opinion always operate to make a profit and keep more as you don't know if next year or the year after will be so good and this is the problem many member clubs have got into,  many have no more money for the rainy days. Our club is run as a members club and Cumberwell and The Kendleshire both have the same 'souls' as member clubs they are not like some other proprietary clubs you will find. Cumberwell offers the MEMBER good value, the OWNERS operate it as a traditional golf club with EXTRAS, the OWNERS  don't really take any money out they re-invest it back into the project just like a MEMBERS CLUB.


The point about a cheap guest fee being a perk is not seen as a perk for enough members in my opinion and whilst I can understand the sentiment behind it what we do is gift three free green fees for members to bring guests in our Open Week but 80% don't bother with it, it might even be more than that.


Duncan's point about introducing a guest I agree is great to attract potential new members, yes they go with their friends largely. Again by definition it won't be because the guest fee was £18 and not £28.


I can only speak for the plan we work too and guest fees are a big earner. I just don't think you should give away the goods too cheap. I had a look back at our take in guest green fees for the 1st day of each month and we took:


June 1st we took £218.
July 1st we took £231.
August 1st we took £142.
September 1st we took £220.
October 1st we took £28.
November 1st we took £120.

[Sean_A]

No Kalen.


I’m refuting Mr Carlton who believes members guests should pay for free and Mr Arble who thinks his mates should play for less than the discount you describe.

Ahh OK, Glad to have mis-understood! 


Perhaps we should posit a question to the group.  Has anyone left a club because the accompanied guest fee was too high?

Yes. We lost a group this year to Cumberwell funnily enough. They are a fairly money consious group as golfers though several of them are millionaires. A few of the group just pay a guest fee as they only play 10-15 rounds a year, they had everything worked out to the penny. It has been brought up by the membership that our guest fee is too high but it is a big earner so why do I want to drop it.

Adrian  precisely, why would you want to drop the fee when you are a business? Members are a secondary consideration to profit. Both Niall and me have been referencing member owned clubs. What proprietary clubs do is a completely different subject 


Ciao

They should still act like business's IMO. The profits are just redistributed in a different way.

Yes and no.  Lowering membership dues by increased revenues is not always the best way to run a club.  Members' interests must be recognized and at some point, maximizing revenues creates less value for the members.  Each club has a different breaking point depending on their bank account and desires.  Saving £100 a quid a year, but having significantly less access to the course or not being able to sign in mates at a reasonable rate is not, imo, worth maximizing revenue streams. There has to be a tradeoff which in the case of proprietary clubs isn't nearly as important. Bottom line, the infrastructure and staff of a members club is there to serve the membership.  In the case of a proprietary club, this simply isn't the case...members are a revenue stream in a business.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Some general comments as asides in no particular order and private member clubs based -


Some private members clubs historically used to, maybe still do, price their greenfees on an almost “we don’t really want you coming here but if you insist we’ll hit you very hard in the pocket”.


Easier travel and the web have made playing other courses easier to reach and to research their pricing and availability and alternatives.


Folks retiring earlier have meant more golfers travelling to play elsewhere. The expansion of club Open Comps has  expanded this as have more inter-club matches especially since the rise of senior club matches/Opens.


English County cards. At some clubs you get one as part of your membership, at other clubs seemingly not. Some clubs only accept visiting county card players from nearby counties others seem to accept them from any county. Some clubs only accept them at certain times of the year. Some don’t accept them at all. English County cards can’t be used in Wales and vice-versa).


Reciprocal arrangements. These seem to be increasing either on a free game or pay-less basis. Some clubs have an arrangement with the private members club next door or close-by when maintenance is gong on with a limitation of how often an individual can play. Most reciprocals seem to be at a distance that means it’s a journey to play though, say an hour or mores drive. Private clubs of similar etchelon seem to reciprocate....high and low etchelon clubs don’t reciprocate. And by the way, there is no automatic Royal-club to Royal-Club reciprocal, it’s on an individual Royal club basis.


That’ll do for now.


One thing I have learnt herein though is that folks like Adrian and Jon and Ryan who are in the business of operating clubs know a hell of a lot more than the butcher, baker and candlestick maker who are on the committees of most private members clubs!


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

No Kalen.


I’m refuting Mr Carlton who believes members guests should pay for free and Mr Arble who thinks his mates should play for less than the discount you describe.

Ahh OK, Glad to have mis-understood! 


Perhaps we should posit a question to the group.  Has anyone left a club because the accompanied guest fee was too high?

Yes. We lost a group this year to Cumberwell funnily enough. They are a fairly money consious group as golfers though several of them are millionaires. A few of the group just pay a guest fee as they only play 10-15 rounds a year, they had everything worked out to the penny. It has been brought up by the membership that our guest fee is too high but it is a big earner so why do I want to drop it.

Adrian  precisely, why would you want to drop the fee when you are a business? Members are a secondary consideration to profit. Both Niall and me have been referencing member owned clubs. What proprietary clubs do is a completely different subject 


Ciao

They should still act like business's IMO. The profits are just redistributed in a different way.

Yes and no.  Lowering membership dues by increased revenues is not always the best way to run a club.  Members' interests must be recognized and at some point, maximizing revenues creates less value for the members.  Each club has a different breaking point depending on their bank account and desires.  Saving £100 a quid a year, but having significantly less access to the course or not being able to sign in mates at a reasonable rate is not, imo, worth maximizing revenue streams. There has to be a tradeoff which in the case of proprietary clubs isn't nearly as important. Bottom line, the infrastructure and staff of a members club is there to serve the membership.  In the case of a proprietary club, this simply isn't the case...members are a revenue stream in a business.

Ciao

You still have to run it as a business, how you proportion the £ versus the Member wants is still a business like transaction. Ryan operates a members club but I am pretty sure he will be constantly balancing the income trying to maximise as many areas as he can that can raise money/but always factoring things that affect the member... like he can't book a society for 100 people on a Saturday morning. Other member clubs I have worked with think along those lines though I have not worked with a GB & Ireland Top 100 club which are different. Clubs should AIM to still make a profit because its not sunny all the time, Clubs should really accrue 25K per year for their Irrigation systems I doubt many do that and I expect many expert members don't even think they get worn out. One thing that WE/ CUMBERWELL OR THE KENDLESHIRE don't think is that a Member is just part of the revenue stream, it might be the case at some clubs but they are very valued and clearly the member has the prime tee times. Our members will never agree with every decision that gets taken but each member would spend the £1 differently it is always that way.

[Tony_Muldoon]

One thing I have learnt herein though is that folks like Adrian and Jon and Ryan who are in the business of operating clubs know a hell of a lot more than the butcher, baker and candlestick maker who are on the committees of most private members clubs!


Atb

Agreed. The easiest business in the world to run is someone elses. 




I think one of the strengths of the DG is having all sorts of professionals attached to golf particiapate. Thanks guys am enjoying the discussion.




In my own 30 mile catchement there's huge competition and I can think of two courses gone in last 5 years. Hearing tales of woe from a really nice Club that was an Open Qualifier and there's another Course/Club set to open with 27 holes.   The course was paid for by landfill and they seem to be trying to pitch green fees 'high'. I wish them luck.

[Niall C]

No Kalen.


I’m refuting Mr Carlton who believes members guests should pay for free and Mr Arble who thinks his mates should play for less than the discount you describe.

Kalen

You should bear in mind that Ryan runs a commercial operation and is looking at it from that point of view and I'm looking at it from the point of view of the running of a members club which is really what this thread is about. I won't argue anything Ryan is saying about running a commercial operation but I do disagree with him in regards to that model having to apply to a members club or a members club having to be run in that way.

A commercial operation is looking to maximise profit, obviously, whereas a club needs to at least balance the books and in doing so look after the members. Many clubs manage to do that fairly successfully. They may not generate as much revenue as they might if they tried to maximize profit but as I said, that is not what they are about.

IMO a well run club engenders a sense of ownership and belonging in the membership. It is a club the members are proud to be members of and the value of that membership extends beyond the cost per round. Guest fees are a relatively small part of the overall equation and in the greater scheme of things probably isn't that big a thing financially, either for the club or for the member. But I was illustrating it as an example of how it can make the member feel more like a customer and less like a member. As I said before, treat them like a retail customer and they will act like one.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

No Kalen.


I’m refuting Mr Carlton who believes members guests should pay for free and Mr Arble who thinks his mates should play for less than the discount you describe.

Kalen

You should bear in mind that Ryan runs a commercial operation and is looking at it from that point of view and I'm looking at it from the point of view of the running of a members club which is really what this thread is about. I won't argue anything Ryan is saying about running a commercial operation but I do disagree with him in regards to that model having to apply to a members club or a members club having to be run in that way.

Niall

Ryan runs a members club.

[Niall C]

Thanks Adam, in that case I wish him luck.

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall

Rather than hanker for the past, (and I’m not sure whether your ordinarily Club’s you frequent were exemp from this) have you approached this discussion from the fact that Scotland has 60,000 less Club Members than it did 10 years ago? The largest decline of any European Country. Ryan, I'm trying hard to keep this civil but the old geezer pish is getting rather old. As someone in their early 50's and playing the vast majority of my golf at non-Open rota courses that are well outside the top 100, I'd say I'm pretty well representative of the typical golfer. And as for my approach to this discussion, you clearly haven't been paying attention.

Perhaps a more commercial outlook was needed long before now...... ...or perhaps the "commercial" approach adopted by clubs trying to cut each others throats has lead to the decline. Have you even considered that ? You should have because that has been the basis of a lot of the discussion.

You had it right when you said that Club’s need to cut their cloth accordingly, but you’re talking from self interest re: guest fees. [size=78%] [/size]Of course I'm talking from self-interest. I'm talking from the point of view of what adds value to the ordinary member.

Burnham & Berrow has a Sub of £1,100. A greenfee of £115. Unbelievably good value for those lucky enough to be a member. Yet you and Sean begrudge a £35 members guest fee or similar. ‘Not how it used to be’. So 3 guests will cost £105. Who pays that ? Do you not see that as an issue at all or is it just pounds shillings and pence ?

There are lots of ways to add value to a membership, as touched upon in this thread. A greatly reduced guest fee such as above is good value. Yet despite your Oscar Wilde quote, you’re fixating on the price and ignoring the value.   I've barely made a post on this thread without reference to value to members.

An amazing thing to grumble about really and to bring it into a thread about failing Club’s and citing it as an example as to why they are, to my youthful mind, shows a detachment to the reality of the wider subject.

The something for nothing mentality of many members, which you display, as well as the something is better than nothing mentality of management in both ownership models, has exacerbated the decline of many Clubs and the migration from Member to nomadic golfer. so reducing the benefit for the member helps tilts the balance in favour of the members in the members v visitor equation 

Members paying their way, and their Club’s being run in a way that keeps them financially viable doesn’t necessarily turn them into punters either. There is lots that Clubs can do to generate Club spirit and ethos and it costs nothing.

[Ryan Coles]

No Kalen.


I’m refuting Mr Carlton who believes members guests should pay for free and Mr Arble who thinks his mates should play for less than the discount you describe.

Ahh OK, Glad to have mis-understood! 


Perhaps we should posit a question to the group.  Has anyone left a club because the accompanied guest fee was too high?

Yes. We lost a group this year to Cumberwell funnily enough. They are a fairly money consious group as golfers though several of them are millionaires. A few of the group just pay a guest fee as they only play 10-15 rounds a year, they had everything worked out to the penny. It has been brought up by the membership that our guest fee is too high but it is a big earner so why do I want to drop it.

Adrian  precisely, why would you want to drop the fee when you are a business? Members are a secondary consideration to profit. Both Niall and me have been referencing member owned clubs. What proprietary clubs do is a completely different subject 


Ciao

They should still act like business's IMO. The profits are just redistributed in a different way.

Yes and no.  Lowering membership dues by increased revenues is not always the best way to run a club.  Members' interests must be recognized and at some point, maximizing revenues creates less value for the members.  Each club has a different breaking point depending on their bank account and desires.  Saving £100 a quid a year, but having significantly less access to the course or not being able to sign in mates at a reasonable rate is not, imo, worth maximizing revenue streams. There has to be a tradeoff which in the case of proprietary clubs isn't nearly as important. Bottom line, the infrastructure and staff of a members club is there to serve the membership.  In the case of a proprietary club, this simply isn't the case...members are a revenue stream in a business.

Ciao

Sean


Both members club and proprietary Club needs to strike the same balance to some degree. Don’t forget that membership is a key income stream for many owners. Many proprietary also walk the tightrope between keeping most members happy and that years profit / financial target. The successful ones get the balance right. Golf Club owners or at least the successful ones play the long game and hesitate instead of cooking the golden goose.


It’s not as cut and dry in either sector as simply Members v Profit and often they’re not mutually exclusive to either model.

[Ryan Coles]

Thanks Adam, in that case I wish him luck.

Niall

Thanks Niall


Apologies for the old geezer pish. No offence intended.


It’s just that I try and actually read what is written and much of your comments herein start with the line ‘it used to be’ and you also treated us to a when you were a lad in the 60’s anecdote.


Rather than be unresponsive to your points, I thought I’d approach things from a perspective of how things are now for many in huge swathes of the UK, from the  perspective of someone who does this for a living.


I’m sorry you found this tiresome and will refrain from engaging, so it does indeed remain civil.

[Kalen Braley]

As a sidepoint...

Compared to dues here in the states, most UK members already are getting a huge benefit with relatively cheap annual dues. So to think a club has to provide a very cheap or free accompanied rate on top of this seems a bit unnecessary... but once again, I understand this is all relative.

P.S.  To re-state, I do think the hit and runner, one and done unaccompanied fee should be set high to ensure member times aren't clogged up..

[Lou_Duran]

As a visitor to the UK most years, I very much like the golf culture there.  This thread is of interest because it does seem to reveal and old-world attitude about economics and money.

I tend to agree with Ryan that the distinction between for-profit (commercial) clubs and privates is one with fewer differences than some suggest.  Whether the former might seek to return a profit to its owners after operating expenses and capital reserves (ok, don't laugh here), the latter is doing the same thing for its owners (the members) who paid an initiation fee and require non-monetary dividends in the form of access, playing conditions, privacy, fellowship, etc.

The supply/demand imbalance is not solved by opaque pricing or just trying to cover variable costs year after year.  It certainly won't improve for the vast majority of courses by gouging foreigners, mostly Americans, simply because it might have worked in the past.

Until the UK economy produces sufficient discretionary income and the population of the classes which play golf reverses its declining fertility rates, constriction of supply via re-purposing of golf courses will continue.  I think that this provides both challenges and opportunities for the local operators.

As one who hopes to spend more time in the UK over the next 10 or so years, I hope that they figure things out.  Most of us are price takers so the choice is where and whether to play.  As was pointed out earlier, an unused tee time does not generate revenue and is gone for ever.  And while an astute operator does not want to cannibalize his higher-paying opportunities, losing a potential customer to a course that offers better value may have rippling effects.  Ballyliffin at €150 vs. Portsalon at €40 is not a terribly difficult choice.

I suppose that the operators have to sharpen their pencils and clean their crystal balls- is charging £50 and selling 1000 rounds better than 400 at £150?  Maybe not, but what if in the following years that 400 declines progressively to 350, 300, 250 .... due to the perceived value of the higher fee?   Golf seems like such an easy business with Skynyrd playing in the background and a keyboard on our laps. 

[Duncan Cheslett]

To re-state, I do think the hit and runner, one and done unaccompanied fee should be set high to ensure member times aren't clogged up..

Dynamic pricing is an inevitability going forward.

Popular times for member play are entirely predictable. At these times visitor play is sensibly not permitted or the price pitched very high. At other times - weekday afternoons for instance - most golf courses are deserted and can happily accommodate visitors. At these times visitor green fees can be set at a discounted rate without the risk of upsetting members or compromising the perceived value of the course.

For example;

8am - 11am      £55.00
11am - 1pm      £45.00
1pm - 3pm        £35.00
3pm onwards    £30.00

Sooner or later, I am sure that the main tee booking systems used by golf clubs will feature algorithms which automatically customize pricing to achieve maximum revenue from each day's tee sheet.

It works for hotels and airlines. Golf clubs are in essence little different. They are selling a commodity which if not sold today is gone forever.

[Duncan Cheslett]

As for members' guest rates, I did some analysis while at Reddish Vale and found that 95% of members had not hosted any guests at all in the previous five years. Meanwhile I had hosted on average over twenty each year. Most from GCA!


I worked out that if the 95% all brought along just three guests per year at £15 a head it would net the club nearly £20,000 in extra income. That's an extra member of greens staff.


These figures tend to give the lie to the idea that members' guest rates are too cheap!

[Niall C]

Sooner or later, I am sure that the main tee booking systems used by golf clubs will feature algorithms which automatically customize pricing to achieve maximum revenue from each day's tee sheet.

It works for hotels and airlines. Golf clubs are in essence little different. They are selling a commodity which if not sold today is gone forever.

Duncan

How does this square with Adrians theory on the race to the bottom ? If I know (as a visitor) for sure that at some point I can get a lower price why would I go with the higher price ? If you can get your mind away from having to fill the tee-sheet, and look towards fewer visitors at higher rates you'll find that your members, who are after all the core of the "business", will be a lot happier.

Niall

[Niall C]

As for members' guest rates, I did some analysis while at Reddish Vale and found that 95% of members had not hosted any guests at all in the previous five years. Meanwhile I had hosted on average over twenty each year. Most from GCA!


I worked out that if the 95% all brought along just three guests per year at £15 a head it would net the club nearly £20,000 in extra income. That's an extra member of greens staff.


These figures tend to give the lie to the idea that members' guest rates are too cheap!

Duncan

Presumably they charge £15 a head for visitors at RV ? If that is the case, what does it tell you in that 95% of the membership haven't brought any members in the previous 5 years ? It doesn't sound as though the clubs making any significant income anyway out of charging for guests so is it worth it ?

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Niall - I think there are a couple of things to consider when you look to fill every tee space, how do the green staff work? the damage is quite significant when you put more rounds over a golf course. Tees get hammered, pin positions need moving more often and often on small greens result in excessive wear, you wont put putting 50,000 rounds over 300 sq yard greens in the UK. Fairway divots too. Feet damage, trolley route damage is not just thinned turf it leads to excessive compaction so more aeration someone said to me that a round of golf in the winter does twenty times the damage of a summer one....So it is not quite right that a lost tee time is gone forever lets get a £1 for it. There is a cost for every round that goes out to play.


I actually think that golf courses can be quite busy from 1600 in the UK so why dilute the price, but the horse has log bolted on this one, some clubs start their TWILIGHT ZONE at mid-day!!! The real area where I have found little play is after 1430 - 1600 midweek and after 1430 on weekends.


The problem with Duncan's four banding is people will book close to cheap time change, they won't want full rate 8 minutes before the price drop.. cue phone call from a visitor to pro-shop "can we play at 13.22 for the twilight rate" The Pro will either answer "NO Pay the Price It Says" or "yes that will be okay" and before long your booking out 13.24 times.


I just do one price drop from £48 to £36, but we also do 9 hole rates at £24, I noticed the assistant pro sold some 9 hole times at £18 but he did not get it when I said he was wrong for doing that.

[Thomas Dai]

9-Hole rates. I did wonder when this would come up. A good idea or not?


Maintenance time too. Courses do need a rest sometimes



Earlier I wrote about English County Cards but omitted to mention something. Namely how many times per year can you use your CC at the same club? In my experience only once in a couple of decades has a record ever been kept of my CC details, date of play etc. Usually it’s simply play away chaps, often without checking more than one of the players cards. Lots of scope for hoodwinking here. This to me is an example of clubs shooting themselves in the foot. Look after the pennies and the pounds will take of themselves etc.
Atb

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