[Tom_Doak]

In the thread about Pinehurst #4, corey miller put his finger on something that I've been wrestling with on two current projects - the redesign of the Ocean course at The National in Australia, and a new major renovation that we will start in January.  [Unfortunately, I can't identify the latter just yet, due to politics.]  Here's corey's point:

Was most concerned with all the time,money,effort that was used to undo Fazio and if all the new/old stuff would get in the ground. 

Exactly.  People always talk up the potential of major renovations, but for me they are much more difficult than a new course, because somebody previously has spent millions modifying the site, and you've got to undo all of that work to get it back to pristine. 


I'm still a minimalist by heart, but it's impossible to just build a cool green and some bunkers and be done with a hole on a renovation, like we can on a new course.  You've got to remove all the fill and the unnatural shaping that has been done by others, and if the course has been worked on in the modern era, that's a lot of work!


On a restoration it is simply a matter of reversing the damage and putting back what was once there.  If the greens were not moved in previous renovations, then there won't be a lot of excess shaping away from the greens.  But for a renovation, you've got to undo all of that AND THEN START OVER and do the right thing.


The project at The National is turning out very well:  we have relocated more than half the greens and it feels like a totally different course.  It also feels like a much better piece of land, now that the routing is not fighting the terrain so hard!  But it was way, way more work than I anticipated because there was so much old work to erase -- which is pretty funny since the original course was described in all the promotional materials as having been very minimally constructed!  I think they were fibbing.

[MCirba]

Just think what Keith Foster is going to have to do at Congressional if the membership goes through with that plan!

It would take a small army just to dismantle the giant mounds around the 2nd green.   

"I know Dev Emmet is buried in here somewhere...keep digging!!!" 

[Nick Ribeiro]

Just think what Keith Foster is going to have to do at Congressional if the membership goes through with that plan!

It would take a small army just to dismantle the giant mounds around the 2nd green.   

"I know Dev Emmet is buried in here somewhere...keep digging!!!" 

What exactly will Keith Foster do there? With all the tourneys they just signed up for he certainly wont be "restoring" it to anything prior than 20 years ago.... If he did that the course would not be able to host any of the tourneys including the Junior PGA Championship.....

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - as much work as it is to get the site back to a pristine/blank slate state, I'd imagine it might actually be easier than trying to pick & choose selected (and interesting/useful) features from an earlier renovation and incorporate them into your plan/designs. Do you keep an eye open for that possibility, or does that make the whole process just too complicated?

Mike - with Cobb's, does any of the above apply?
P

[Tom_Doak]

I'd imagine it might actually be easier than trying to pick & choose selected (and interesting/useful) features from an earlier renovation and incorporate them into your plan/designs. Do you keep an eye open for that possibility, or does that make the whole process just too complicated?

Sure, that's part of my Hippocratic oath of minimalism: don't tear up any ground you don't need to.  So we look to use the fill instead of hauling it away.


My wife compared it to gesso, where you paint over a canvas with white before you start working. (My new word of the day.) But we are working in 3-D, so it's more like scraping off wads of debris that somebody else grafted to our block of marble.  Trying to figure out ways to incorporate a lot of that is exponentially harder.

[mike_beene]

Bel-air was probably a poster child for fixing what came before. Several I thought would not care for the changes are so excited about them they can't shut up. A successful redo or whatever you call it is one of the few ways to change people's way of thinking about what the game can be.

[corey miller]

Pinehurst #4 had what looked like "built up fairways" throughout the course...removing and getting back to a more natural looking grade was a project in itself.

I can imagine more than a few clubs would reject remediation work based on cost alone.  I have seen "restoration" plans that do not include remediation and yes perhaps they are faux but I suspect they are a lot less cheaper. 

Jim Wagner did a wonderful job of restoring/renovating at Rockaway Hunting, it is truly one of the great gold days in the Metro area.  That said, the previous renovation in the early 2000's included a larger range and mounding severely damaging holes #17,#18.

Those two holes now look and play much better but it is nowhere near what the area looked like circa 1990's or 1920's for that matter.  Point being....truly "restoring" would have been shrinking a range as well as giant "unmounding" work.  Are many clubs willing to spend $250,000 on two holes, lose area on a range (which I am not convinced actually works as intended), in light of the total cost of the project?

[Mark_Fine]

Never designed/built an 18 hole new course from scratch but I would venture to say doing restorations/renovations is a more challenging and politically charged process.  I actually enjoy it (most of the time) but as anyone who does this knows - it is fun but NOT EASY!

[Thomas Dai]

Maybe it's due to reading to many posts herein (?) but it seems to me that major renovations/restorations are more of a US (and these days Aussie) thing than worldwide. Would this impression be correct and if so any suggestions as to why? Money? Opportunities? Other?
atb

[Jake Marvin]

it seems to me that major renovations/restorations are more of a US (and these days Aussie) thing than worldwide.

I'd agree with that idea. Doesn't help that we have to use restorations to walk back all the renovations before we start all over again, which doesn't happen as often elsewhere.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’d certainly agree that major restorations are more of a US thing. We care less about our architectural history in GB&I.


But major renovations are a worldwide thing. Designers love creating work for themselves.

[Matthew Rose]

A "restoration" at Congressional.


Does that mean the 10th is being flipped back around to be the 18th?

[Tom_Doak]

Maybe it's due to reading to many posts herein (?) but it seems to me that major renovations/restorations are more of a US (and these days Aussie) thing than worldwide. Would this impression be correct and if so any suggestions as to why? Money? Opportunities? Other?
atb

Brits are much less likely to dismiss a course and think it needs $5m worth of work to fix it.  You're much more practical.


But, also, there are fewer pay-for-play courses in Britain, and there is less competition between private clubs for members, in most cities.

[Ira Fishman]

A "restoration" at Congressional.


Does that mean the 10th is being flipped back around to be the 18th?

A great sardonic post. But what does a restoration of a course like Congressional that repeatedly been lengthened and altered to stay viable for Majors and the Ryder Cup really mean? Is it even possible to get anywhere close to the original intent?


Ira

[Carl Rogers]

Is the assumption that what is there is hardly worth saving?  Is a significant re-routing possible?  Big change to the hole sequencing?

[Matthew Rose]

I'm actually half-serious  ..... but yeah, what is there to "restore" exactly, apart from the whole 10th/18th thing? I think I read the original 9th was a par three and a par four combined into one hole but I think that happened decades ago.

I'm not really crazy about the Rees style but I don't remember the earlier version being particularly identifiable with anyone or anything... maybe someone who remembers the Venturi open or at least the Kemper Open days might have a better eye for it than I do.

[Matthew Mollica]

I’ve heard the early work at The National  described as “undoing the unnatural”. I thought that would be time consuming but maybe it is more difficult than I appreciated.




Many friends suggested the Ocean course be used as a target training facility for RAAF pilots prior to any renovation. Maybe that isn’t so far fetched after all... 😁

[Niall C]

I’d certainly agree that major restorations are more of a US thing. We care less about our architectural history in GB&I.


But major renovations are a worldwide thing. Designers love creating work for themselves.

Ally

That's a true comment regarding renovations in the UK and the lack of interest in our architectural history although I think that is improving. The upside to the lack of interest is that we are less prone to obliterate what we have now in order to reboot to whatever the course was back in the beginning. In this country you are more likely to see layers upon layers of work which sometimes comes across as a mish mash but often adds interest. I love seeing old bunkers that have naturally grassed over as they have been abandoned through lack of use.

Niall

[Niall C]

Maybe it's due to reading to many posts herein (?) but it seems to me that major renovations/restorations are more of a US (and these days Aussie) thing than worldwide. Would this impression be correct and if so any suggestions as to why? Money? Opportunities? Other?
atb

Brits are much less likely to dismiss a course and think it needs $5m worth of work to fix it.  You're much more practical.


But, also, there are fewer pay-for-play courses in Britain, and there is less competition between private clubs for members, in most cities.

Tom

I think the reality over here is that clubs are unlikely to have that sort of money anyway so its never really a consideration. In terms of competition the focus seems to be keeping costs down, at least in relation to visitor fees, rather than spending money they usually don't have on the "product".

Hard to see how that's going to change, at least in the short term.

Niall

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