[Ulrich Mayring]

Absolutely. There is actually something like that in several countries, where you have to pass a rules / etiquette and playing ability test to be awarded your "course maturity" or (in Austria) to become eligible to play in tournaments. It's a pretty controversial measure, because it has the potential to deter beginners from taking up the game.

The real question is whether courses are going to accept Competence Numbers as well as handicaps for access. So on part of a Golf Association you're again running the danger of wasting a lot of money for introducing a system that the market doesn't accept in the end.

Ulrich

[Jon Wiggett]

The handicap system was never designed as a gateway to access to the golf course Ulrich. Yes, much of Europe has this but this is a legacy of the upper class snobbism which permeates the game in much of Europe. Despite the 'Platzreife' tests required in countries such as Germany, Switzerland amongst others the standard of golf played by the average newcomer (first 5 years) is much worse than in the UK and the etiquette often none existent. I always put this down to the fact that in the UK you learn as you go playing on the course and others are quite happy to encourage you to follow accepted practice.  Where as for most who get through the Platzreife system they have learned to hit a ball on the driving range but not on the course. I always believe that it is better to start by learning to play poor but fast game and then improve the playing side than slow, better golf that never gets faster. On top of this there are those who seem to believe that the Platzreife gives them the god given right to be on the course and the allowance to act as they wish.


I know it sounds harsh and I am not having a dig at golfers in these countries but there is a big 'snob' problem within the upper echelons of certain countries.

[Mark Pearce]

The handicap system was never designed as a gateway to access to the golf course Ulrich.

It wasn't.  But there's no denying that it functions as such in the UK as well as Europe.

[Duncan Cheslett]

It isn’t specifically the possession of a handicap which allows access to certain courses, but membership of a bona fide golf club.


A handicap is a handy way of verifying that a visitor is a club golfer and not a vagabond.

[Marty Bonnar]

Is there any chance people could move this handicapping chat into another thread?
I'm checking in here to get updates for BUDA!
Love,
F.

[Mark Pearce]

It isn’t specifically the possession of a handicap which allows access to certain courses, but membership of a bona fide golf club.


A handicap is a handy way of verifying that a visitor is a club golfer and not a vagabond.

No.  If a club sets a requirement that a visitor have a handicap of, say, 24 or better to play, it's the handicap that allows access.

[Jon Wiggett]

The handicap system was never designed as a gateway to access to the golf course Ulrich.

It wasn't.  But there's no denying that it functions as such in the UK as well as Europe.

That is true but altering the handicap system to allow all people access to a handicap in order they may get access to courses who do not want them in the first place is not going to work. All that will happen is those type of clubs will just alter the access requirements.

Is there any chance people could move this handicapping chat into another thread?
I'm checking in here to get updates for BUDA!
Love,
F.

Surely you jest sir!!!!! Thread high jacking is a long held tradition on this website which should be protected at all costs. 


You're right M. I will start a new thread for this topic.

[Jason Topp]

Is there any chance people could move this handicapping chat into another thread?
I'm checking in here to get updates for BUDA!
Love,
F.

Marty - The annual handicap discussion is a proud BUDA tradition.  My favorite moment was seeing some guy named Ian at Lundin Links being informed he was entitled to 3 strokes and responding "I shan't be needing them."  He was correct.  He could play. 

[Mark Pearce]

Is there any chance people could move this handicapping chat into another thread?
I'm checking in here to get updates for BUDA!
Love,
F.

Marty - The annual handicap discussion is a proud BUDA tradition.  My favorite moment was seeing some guy named Ian at Lundin Links being informed he was entitled to 3 strokes and responding "I shan't be needing them."  He was correct.  He could play.

Ah, yes, Mr Dickson.  And yes he can play.  Wasn't that the same BUDA that Conrad Gamble shot an approximate gross 75 playing off 15?

[Jason Topp]

Is there any chance people could move this handicapping chat into another thread?
I'm checking in here to get updates for BUDA!
Love,
F.

Marty - The annual handicap discussion is a proud BUDA tradition.  My favorite moment was seeing some guy named Ian at Lundin Links being informed he was entitled to 3 strokes and responding "I shan't be needing them."  He was correct.  He could play.

Ah, yes, Mr Dickson.  And yes he can play.  Wasn't that the same BUDA that Conrad Gamble shot an approximate gross 75 playing off 15?

I do not remember that but I suspect that would be good enough to win.

[Scott Warren]

Can I just be clear — as someone who will need to be negotiating handicaps with the CONGU crowd in a week — is it the contention of UK Budans is that the US team should be playing off their index and not a “course handicap”?

[Stan Dodd]

I have always thought, with the huge prize money at stake, The Buda matches should be payed at scratch.  Group by handicap from low to high and no strokes given or taken.

[Thomas Dai]

Handicap disputes in matches can be settled in many ways including pistols at dawn and rock-paper-scissors.


atb

[Michael Whitaker]

I have always thought, with the huge prize money at stake, The Buda matches should be payed at scratch.  Group by handicap from low to high and no strokes given or taken.

The only problem with that, Stan, is you wind up playing the same guys over and over... there needs to be as much mixing as possible.

No one is trying to cheat on this thing, for God’s sake! Just ask the man’s handicap and move on... if he has a good day’s score, well done! What difference does it make?

[Garland Bayley]

After taking the lowest 10 scores out of the last 20 rounds, adjusting for both (rating and slope- when is the last time anyone has played a course with a slope of 113 or under?),

There is a good chance some, or many of our UK cohorts have played courses with slope of 113 or under. Many of those par 67, 68, or 69 courses you find there have such a slope. The problem is they don't play comps there, and have their handicaps set on scores from such courses. Problem is that US handicaps are normalized to courses of that difficulty.

and then take a further reduction of that average by 4%, our handicaps here have a bit of a vanity aspect in them.

If a person's handicap has a vanity aspect, it is the person's fault, not the handicap system's fault.

  Brexit or not, the few golfers whom I've known with competitive experience in both continents tell me that an American 5 is about a UK 7, a 10 might be a 13 or 14.


The one thing I find interesting about the proposed global system is the dynamic adjustment to the course rating based on the day's conditions and competition.  I hope that they can work out the details, but I just see it as another potential can of worms.

Just a simple software composition problem. The worms are in human character.

[Mark Pearce]

Garland,


I know that Elie and Balcomie have slopes of 113.  Can you name some UK courses with slopes that have been measured that are lower?  Also, since CONGU requires competitive play to maintain handicaps, I don't understand your comment that handicaps here have been achieved on those courses without competitive play?

[Ben Stephens]

I have always thought, with the huge prize money at stake, The Buda matches should be payed at scratch.  Group by handicap from low to high and no strokes given or taken.

The only problem with that, Stan, is you wind up playing the same guys over and over... there needs to be as much mixing as possible.

No one is trying to cheat on this thing, for God’s sake! Just ask the man’s handicap and move on... if he has a good day’s score, well done! What difference does it make?

Really??? I seem to vaguely remember that I came against a rather questionable bandit on the fabled grounds of Hollinwell yet shooting a gross 74 with a handicap of 10 or thereabouts and the Standard Scratch Score around 72/73 and Competition Standard Scratch I would say probably 75/76 (11 to 12 under nett!!!) which I played to around 82 or 83 (which meant i was close to the CSS) yet still got smashed something like 7 and 6 by not even playing badly at all.  ..............


It was probably more likely to be the round of your life so far.

[Bryan Izatt]

Is there any chance people could move this handicapping chat into another thread?
I'm checking in here to get updates for BUDA!
Love,
F.

Marty - The annual handicap discussion is a proud BUDA tradition.  My favorite moment was seeing some guy named Ian at Lundin Links being informed he was entitled to 3 strokes and responding "I shan't be needing them."  He was correct.  He could play.

Ah, yes, Mr Dickson.  And yes he can play.  Wasn't that the same BUDA that Conrad Gamble shot an approximate gross 75 playing off 15?

Indeed, that was the same BUDA.  Ian and Conrad were better ball partners and handily torched Rihc and I to the tune of 6DN.  Ian with a nice 73 and Conrad with a 75 (net 60).  I still bear the scars.  No handicapping system in the world can deal with that kind of onslaught. 


On the other hand it was a nice sunny day on a wonderful course with two fine gentleman taking it to us.  Below, a picture of the ever cool Conrad on the 18th looking at a birdie (net 2).  It was a fun day.

[Ben Stephens]

Umm, why don't we have a BUDA/GCA handicap system - forget what our club handicap system is


for example the people who have lost more than others should play off a slightly higher handicap likewise for those who have won more matches in the past play of a lower handicap to be agreed by captains prior to the event


Newcomers play off their standard handicap


There is some sort of element of fairness in this. I recommend that Whitty plays off scratch 

[Ben Stephens]

Is there any chance people could move this handicapping chat into another thread?
I'm checking in here to get updates for BUDA!
Love,
F.

Marty - The annual handicap discussion is a proud BUDA tradition.  My favorite moment was seeing some guy named Ian at Lundin Links being informed he was entitled to 3 strokes and responding "I shan't be needing them."  He was correct.  He could play.

Ah, yes, Mr Dickson.  And yes he can play.  Wasn't that the same BUDA that Conrad Gamble shot an approximate gross 75 playing off 15?

Indeed, that was the same BUDA.  Ian and Conrad were better ball partners and handily torched Rihc and I to the tune of 6DN.  Ian with a nice 73 and Conrad with a 75 (net 60).  I still bear the scars.  No handicapping system in the world can deal with that kind of onslaught. 


On the other hand it was a nice sunny day on a wonderful course with two fine gentleman taking it to us.  Below, a picture of the ever cool Conrad on the 18th looking at a birdie (net 2).  It was a fun day.

Isn't that the 18th at Lundin?? a blast from the past!

[Bryan Izatt]

On a handicap note, who in the UK sets the SSS for a course?  Is it based on actual scratch players' scores over a period of time or number of players under normal conditions?  Or is a calculation based on length and features of the course? 


The USGA system is based on a complicated analytical model that requires a team of four raters two days to complete.  Some of the base assumptions are questionable but it should be an approach that is repeatable across courses anywhere.  The system does lead to an index that is aspirational - it is supposed to reflect your potential.  In that context, you're supposed to shoot to your handicap or better only 20% of the time.


I wonder if the CONGU system is similar?  Do you better your handicap more than 20% of the time?


In Canada there is relatively little in the way of club competitions.  Curiously, I've played more competitions in the UK (2) than I have at home (0) in the last 10 years.  We have a weekly men's night, member/guest, match play, etc, but those are all internal to the club.  For most casual rounds and men's night, adherence to all the rules of golf by many is perhaps not so diligent.  In that context, many have indexes that are partially vanity.  That should be good for the UK and European BUDAites


In the last couple of years, there has been a Senior Ryder Cup organized across our province.  I believe there will be 132 courses this year broken up into groups of four with a playoff system.  The good thing about it handicap-wise is that it is played at scratch, although most, if not all of us are not nearly scratch golfers.

[Michael Whitaker]

I’ve said before we should play the Buda matches using Sunningdale rules... start at scratch, then if you’re ever two down you get a shot on the next hole until you pull back within one down. Easy to manage, any participants can have a match with each other, and it keeps things within reach even if one player (or team) has an exceptionally good or bad day.

Even Ben would have had a chance in our Hollinwell match if we had used Sunningdale rules! 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,


I know that Elie and Balcomie have slopes of 113.  Can you name some UK courses with slopes that have been measured that are lower? 


Aberfeldy 112
Abernethy 109
Aigas 110
Alford 111
Alva 111
Anstruther 96
...
You get the picture. There are lots of them as this many show up part way through the A's.
In fact, 6 of the first 14 alphabetically listed are 113 or under.
(Had to get to Anstruther as I may be playing it on the 25th.)


Also, since CONGU requires competitive play to maintain handicaps, I don't understand your comment that handicaps here have been achieved on those courses without competitive play?

Have you or any other of your fellow UK Pests played comps on courses slope rated 113 or lower? If you haven't, then your handicaps have been calculated from scores on tougher courses, whereas ours are normalized (lowered) to reflect play on a course with a rating of 113.

[Sean_A]

I’ve said before we should play the Buda matches using Sunningdale rules... start at scratch, then if you’re ever two down you get a shot on the next hole until you pull back within one down. Easy to manage, any participants can have a match with each other, and it keeps things within reach even if one player (or team) has an exceptionally good or bad day.

Even Ben would have had a chance in our Hollinwell match if we had used Sunningdale rules! 

I agree with wise Whitty. Captains, make it so.


Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

Those Sunningdale rules are fascinating, first I heard of them. There are all kinds of effects that, taken together, might produce a bias this or that way, but I can't really get my head around it.

• The better player is at an advantage, because his opponent can't win by only using the stroke holes. The higher handicap needs to win a couple of holes straight-up to win the match.
• A player, who sucks that day, might get more shots during the course of the round than he would ordinarily be entitled to.
• A higher handicap, who plays great, needs to give strokes to the lower handicap.

How does that play out? I'd like to try it. What about a variant, where you get a shot when one down until the match is even? Isn't that more equitable?

Ulrich

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