[Ben Stephens]

If the members of this forum crowdfunded as a group and became part of a GCA development company


Which course should we buy and why?

[Mike Sweeney]

Sugarloaf in Orlando or Southern Pines in Pinehurst.


Reality of this group is - we are diverse in location, not clubby/loyal in nature, and we want to play some Doak 7+ on a golf trip.


Sugarloaf and Southern Pines are both winter style courses which are located in areas where there are better options that we could also play (Pinehurst, Streamsong....). In the summer, there are too many options "up North" to have a "GCA Club". In the winter, these two courses would be the sporty base courses of a golf trip, and could easily jump into the 147 Custodian list with some "Ran Love".


IMO, only Ran could pull this off, but with his recent trip to Minnesota and Iceland to play golf (according to GCA Mafia), he seems like his stamina for traveling is INCREASING.


Obviously Sugarloaf is more complicated as it would have to be re-built. I think the guys who run Sugarloaf Social Club have looked into it, and it is probably locked into a complicated corporate structure from the never built real estate development.


Other winter spots such as California is probably too expensive, and desert golf in Arizona has never been fully embraced by this group.


Everybody likes/loves Ross and C&C!!

[Blake Conant]

The answer is clearly Kankakee

[Ben Stephens]

Thank you for the responses


In UK I was thinking of Isle of Purbeck - there is huge potential here and the views are stunning


If there was somewhere unique however far away people are and the price is right who knows and I agree Ran would be the right person to steer it forward and every GCA member plays the course free as long as they make a minimum contribution to the crowdfunding

[MCirba]

Timber Point is restoreable

[Mike_Young]

NONE....it would be worse than a NewYork Yankees fan club buying a baseball team...

[Joe Bausch]

Olde Masters in Newtown Square, PA.

[Mike Sweeney]

NONE....it would be worse than a NewYork Yankees fan club buying a baseball team...

Sounds like a banker talking!!

[Jim Nugent]

Wolf Point, or Black Mesa, or Apache Stronghold.

[Mike_Young]

NONE....it would be worse than a NewYork Yankees fan club buying a baseball team...

Sounds like a banker talking!!

No.  more like a realist.  Too many goobers involved here for it to work...

[Tom_Doak]

Up until a month ago, I would have said the nine-hole Hooper GC in New Hampshire.  But a local just bought it, for $500k.  The key to such deals is finding a reasonable price.


The reason this would not work via GCA is that owning a golf course is an intensely local thing.  Guys coming from all over is NOT what pays the bills.  Repeat customers from closer at hand are what's needed for success.


To the suggestions:


1.  Isle of Purbeck was bought by a guy from California, who's asked me for some advice.


2.  Apache Stronghold and Black Mesa are on tribal land.  You couldn't buy them if you wanted to.  You could possibly lease them and have the tribe as your partner.  God bless you if you want to try that.


3.  Timber Point seems too busy as a 27-hole course to switch over to 18.  If they'd consider it, I believe I could find the money, but it's actually TOO popular for them to go for it, I think.


4.  The asking price for Wolf Point is pretty high for a course way out in the boonies.  That's going to take somebody with real $ who can justify it to himself.  I don't see how it would ever cash flow in that location, or I'd get the guys together to buy it.


5.  Kankakee is a good option. 


6.  Southern Pines is a better option, because Ran has a local connection to it.

[V_Halyard]

Nice post: The sleeping-in-plain-site Ross at Southern Pines or the Wakonda Club in Iowa, a dormant Langford with trees growing inside of the original bunkers. They have a Champion's tour event so are quite content, but the post began with "If..."

[Bill Gayne]

Maybe another thought would be providing resources to courses being impacted by coastal erosion and need to rebuild holes or strengthen sea defences.

[Paul Dolton]

I play The Isle of Purbeck every year and think its in good hands.
A few years ago the greens were full of thatch but there is a vast improvement now.
Wonderful site.

[Garland Bayley]

Pacific Gales

A links near other website favorites.

[Mark Chaplin]

One member club that’s in serious trouble is Borth and Ynyslas an out and back links on the west Welsh coast near Aberdovey. A rescue plan is being developed but they really need visitors to Aberdovey and Harlech to pay them a visit.

[Jeff Schley]

While I'm somewhat biased in agreeing to Kankakee another option is what Mike Keiser did up at Sand Valley which is to have a guy with deep pockets buy a course and then get GCAer's to be the "Founding Members" for xxxxx amount.  This has proved to be somewhat successful at SV and I had the pleasure of playing with Dan Moore (who is a founding member) at SV this summer and was impressed. 

Thus it isn't so much that GCAer's would buy a course and restore it ect., but a developer can come in identify a course to restore and then get GCAer's to come aboard to help foot the bill to hedge risk and be boots on the ground ambassadors basically.  Founding members would be lifetime playing privileges and like at SV bring guests which would then expose more golfers to the property and the cycle has begun for sustainability in theory.

I would be interested in something like this as few of us wants to buy/renovate/manage/operate a course, but would definitely be interested in a SV type arrangement where the developer develops and owns the course where we are "founding members" who get to enjoy the course and be consulted on renovations or major decisions.

The course could be founded with the 147 custodian principles and advertised as just that with GCA founding members as an old fashioned true to the game golf course for PR.  I think it could have some legs, but this takes the developer, architect, finding the right piece of land or course for the right price.

However as Vaughn said the title does say "IF".

[Ben Stephens]

Up until a month ago, I would have said the nine-hole Hooper GC in New Hampshire.  But a local just bought it, for $500k.  The key to such deals is finding a reasonable price.


The reason this would not work via GCA is that owning a golf course is an intensely local thing.  Guys coming from all over is NOT what pays the bills.  Repeat customers from closer at hand are what's needed for success.


To the suggestions:


1.  Isle of Purbeck was bought by a guy from California, who's asked me for some advice.


2.  Apache Stronghold and Black Mesa are on tribal land.  You couldn't buy them if you wanted to.  You could possibly lease them and have the tribe as your partner.  God bless you if you want to try that.


3.  Timber Point seems too busy as a 27-hole course to switch over to 18.  If they'd consider it, I believe I could find the money, but it's actually TOO popular for them to go for it, I think.


4.  The asking price for Wolf Point is pretty high for a course way out in the boonies.  That's going to take somebody with real $ who can justify it to himself.  I don't see how it would ever cash flow in that location, or I'd get the guys together to buy it.


5.  Kankakee is a good option. 


6.  Southern Pines is a better option, because Ran has a local connection to it.

Hi Tom,


I wasn't aware that Purbeck was bought be a Californian. I hope they can convert existing 1 and 2 into 17 and 18. There is lots of potential and more investment will certainly elevate it above Broadstone, Parkstone and Ferndown.

Southern Pines is an interesting proposition and Ran is the ideal person to steer it forward. I am sure a number of us would be keen in being part of a golf course ownership - the minimum costs can be adjusted based on location - the further away the lower it is possibly starting at 1000 dollars.

I think GCA in theory can have their own development company we have all sorts on here - accountants, golf course managers, golf course designers, developers, architects who could put forward their expertise in exchange for a share of the company.


A good business proposition/plan would be needed to make something like this work.

Southern Pines should welcome everyone not like a private exclusive club and GCA'ers who are part of the development fund play it for free and are 'members' to generate funds we can build houses or dormy accommodation etc.


Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

One member club that’s in serious trouble is Borth and Ynyslas an out and back links on the west Welsh coast near Aberdovey. A rescue plan is being developed but they really need visitors to Aberdovey and Harlech to pay them a visit.

Hi Mark,


Thats interesting. Tony Muldoon wrote a review about Borth a while back. Having Southern Pines and Borth in a portfolio would be cool.


Cheers
Ben

[Tom_Doak]

While I'm somewhat biased in agreeing to Kankakee another option is what Mike Keiser did up at Sand Valley which is to have a guy with deep pockets buy a course and then get GCAer's to be the "Founding Members" for xxxxx amount.  This has proved to be somewhat successful at SV and I had the pleasure of playing with Dan Moore (who is a founding member) at SV this summer and was impressed. 

Thus it isn't so much that GCAer's would buy a course and restore it ect., but a developer can come in identify a course to restore and then get GCAer's to come aboard to help foot the bill to hedge risk and be boots on the ground ambassadors basically.  Founding members would be lifetime playing privileges and like at SV bring guests which would then expose more golfers to the property and the cycle has begun for sustainability in theory.

I would be interested in something like this as few of us wants to buy/renovate/manage/operate a course, but would definitely be interested in a SV type arrangement where the developer develops and owns the course where we are "founding members" who get to enjoy the course and be consulted on renovations or major decisions.

The course could be founded with the 147 custodian principles and advertised as just that with GCA founding members as an old fashioned true to the game golf course for PR.  I think it could have some legs, but this takes the developer, architect, finding the right piece of land or course for the right price.

If you really just want to give a developer your money to reduce the risk for him, without asking for a return, I am happy to introduce you to a whole host of potential developers with cool projects who would be happy to take capital on those terms!  In fact, you might see an opportunity along those lines pop up in the next day or two . . .

[Tom_Doak]

I think GCA in theory can have their own development company we have all sorts on here - accountants, golf course managers, golf course designers, developers, architects who could put forward their expertise in exchange for a share of the company.

Well the hard part of that would be that there are lots of golf course designers here and if we had all 1500 people on GCA participating they would insist on about twenty different guys to be the designer . . . just like all those threads on who should build the next course at Sand Valley.


There might be some disagreements about shaping, budgeting, cart paths or not, number of tees, par, yardage, bunker style, turfgrass selection, and other details, too   

[V_Halyard]

I think GCA in theory can have their own development company we have all sorts on here - accountants, golf course managers, golf course designers, developers, architects who could put forward their expertise in exchange for a share of the company.

Well the hard part of that would be that there are lots of golf course designers here and if we had all 1500 people on GCA participating they would insist on about twenty different guys to be the designer . . . just like all those threads on who should build the next course at Sand Valley.

There might be some disagreements about shaping, budgeting, cart paths or not, number of tees, par, yardage, bunker style, turfgrass selection, and other details, too   

GCA... The universe's largest Golf and Greens committee.
Guess that makes Ran the Chair.
What time is the meeting and will there be refreshments?

Dear Member,

We are saddened to hear of the passing of your Your Great Uncle Wedgefoot.
It is our honour to inform you that your proposal for a tree to be planted in his memory shall be swathed in the ceremonial 18th hole flag and join him for eternity during the celebration of his life and interment.

With our deepest sympathies,
Ran
Chair - The GCA Greens committee

[BHoover]

How much money do we need to raise to buy a course like Southern Pines?

[Jeff Schley]

While I'm somewhat biased in agreeing to Kankakee another option is what Mike Keiser did up at Sand Valley which is to have a guy with deep pockets buy a course and then get GCAer's to be the "Founding Members" for xxxxx amount.  This has proved to be somewhat successful at SV and I had the pleasure of playing with Dan Moore (who is a founding member) at SV this summer and was impressed. 

Thus it isn't so much that GCAer's would buy a course and restore it ect., but a developer can come in identify a course to restore and then get GCAer's to come aboard to help foot the bill to hedge risk and be boots on the ground ambassadors basically.  Founding members would be lifetime playing privileges and like at SV bring guests which would then expose more golfers to the property and the cycle has begun for sustainability in theory.

I would be interested in something like this as few of us wants to buy/renovate/manage/operate a course, but would definitely be interested in a SV type arrangement where the developer develops and owns the course where we are "founding members" who get to enjoy the course and be consulted on renovations or major decisions.

The course could be founded with the 147 custodian principles and advertised as just that with GCA founding members as an old fashioned true to the game golf course for PR.  I think it could have some legs, but this takes the developer, architect, finding the right piece of land or course for the right price.

If you really just want to give a developer your money to reduce the risk for him, without asking for a return, I am happy to introduce you to a whole host of potential developers with cool projects who would be happy to take capital on those terms!  In fact, you might see an opportunity along those lines pop up in the next day or two . . .

I don't know the specifics of the SV "Founding Members" arrangement, but I believe they get free golf for the rest of their lives in addition to some other small perks.  Is this not a return? 

The Founding Members is an incentive for the developer to give up something "free golf for life" in exchange for a fee up front, which then hedges their risk in any project while also giving some ancillary benefit of PR for a golfing community.
It seems to have worked at SV and compared to all of those GCAer's forming a company with shareholder agreements and electing a board with company officers and hiring a bunch of people for company infrastructure, IMO if I only want to golf at a course with above stated mission I'll leave the developing and management to those that are already doing it.  Here is my money to support said Custodian 148 golf course and I'll take the 7 a.m. tee time every Saturday in July.

[ChipRoyce]

Timber Point is restoreable

+1

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