[Sean_A]

Name another baby-size par 4 that compels you to club way down and chip the second shot at the green on a regular basis, even from distances that merit a full shot.  In my world, the 17th at Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek) qualifies, when the pin is on the back shelf.

I'd contend that the 12th at Rustic Canyon is on that list. The penalty for missing long or right is so severe that with any wind on that hole your goal is to safely play 200ish down the right hand side and then play away from the majority of hole locations even with wedge in hand!

What about Deal's 6th?  It often plays downwind...throwing the ball in the air can lead to disaster with the seawall directly behind the green. 

Ciao

[JC Jones]

Tom and Bart be like: This is the greatest course I've ever seen.....it's mine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YBxeDN4tbk

[Rob Rigg]

As a golfing experience Ballyneal is really hard to beat so I would agree with the topic statement based on the modern courses that I have played. It flows wonderfully through some really interesting terrain and, while it might not be easy for some to remember hole by hole, the pacing is phenomenal and there are a bunch of world class holes. Ballyneal is great because of the sum of its parts, the exposure to various wind direction over the course of a round/visit, the ability to run the ball and play super crafty shots across the ground and the uniqueness of not having formal tee boxes. Quite simply, it's a match play course that inspires golfers to play "fun" golf because winning a hole is so much more important than your tally for 18.

IMO - Ballyneal is a more complete course than compelling and coastal Pac Dunes and a more fun course to play than the iconic and amazing Sand Hills. That is likely to make it more of a GCA darling than "Magazine" darling.

Without a doubt, "best" is in the eye of the beholder and much beard pulling has occurred debating BN, PD and SH along with the other 10 to 15 modern tracks that could be in the conversation.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom and Bart be like: This is the greatest course I've ever seen.....it's mine.

My only post on this thread [until now] was explaining to David why he had a hard time remembering which hole was which.  I have not said a thing about the title of the thread, and obviously I didn't write it either.


Remind me, again, what are your best modern designs?

[George Pazin]

It's sad. When I first saw this thread, my first thought was, JC Jones will find some way to rip Tom and other posters on it. I almost made a joke about it, but decided to see wait to see if he'd post.


I'm curious, JC: at what point did you decide you were smarter than everyone else?


You used to offer actual insight on here. Why the change?


Sad...................

[Mike Hendren]

I also really struggle with remembering the routing, perhaps it's a age issue. I don't have that at Pacific Dunes which is my favorite of his designs in the US (I'm biased here perhaps being from Oregon). I didn't have that at Tara Iti either or Barnbougle for that matter.

It's easy to remember the others because you remember the numbers of the holes that go out to the ocean, and then you can piece together the rest.


Do you have the same problem with Sand Hills or Dismal River that you do with Ballyneal?  It's much easier to get lost in the dunes, generally, but I think especially so with Ballyneal.  But I think that's one of the good things about it.

I have previously posted that I too have trouble recalling the individuals holes at Ballyneal from my round there years ago.  I would describe the course as being seamless, almost one uninterrupted walk from the first tee through the eighteenth green.  I don't recall that sensation on other courses and conclude that it is a high compliment.  Playing with Adam Clayman my only round there was among the most enjoyable I can recall as well - hit it, chat a bit, find it and hit it again.  Always challenging but never a struggle.

Rarely does my opinion of a golf course change over time but Ballyneal has crept toward a 9 from my initial sense of it being a 7.  I place it among a handful of courses I'd like to play again. 

[Jim Nugent]

I have long been of the opinion that Ballyneal is the best modern design but my trip this weekend reinforced my thoughts. 

What say you?

Bart

Based on photos and comments, I might agree... until, perhaps, Tara Iti opened. 

[Steve Lang]

   Bogey,


Playing with Adam will do that! 


9 years ago, I had carefully mapped things out from Google earth, added Adam's hole by hole insights that I could extract and we set out with the Colton Gang one beautiful September morning... I think the mapping was put in the bag by the 5th hole, as we had like 20-30 mph winds come up and it was plan B and C adventure golf ... and truly great fun for me.  Ms Sheila still comments about not getting that 4 ft birdie putt because her ball blew off the green!     


Is it the best?  As with many one-off plays, my take away thoughts revolve around how much I wanted to chuck the schedule and head back to No 1 tee...  Ballyneal is right up there with only a handful...

[Matt MacIver]

I love Ballyneal threads.  I will likely never see it in person but the pictures and commentary over the years has moved it into my top 5 wishlist. Someone posted a picture here once of a hole (1st?) with the Pacific Ocean photoshopped in - to add a little eye candy and “compare” it to Pac Dunes.


I just rechecked the current edition of TCG - the four contributors rated the Oregon course 10 9 10 9 and the Colorado course received all 9’s. I was hoping for at least one 10...don’t know why.  Guess I enjoyed all the build-up of the course here and elsewhere. But, I choose to believe all raters can be off at least one rating.

[John Kavanaugh]

I love Ballyneal threads.  I will likely never see it in person but the pictures and commentary over the years has moved it into my top 5 wishlist. Someone posted a picture here once of a hole (1st?) with the Pacific Ocean photoshopped in - to add a little eye candy and “compare” it to Pac Dunes.

Matt,


That was the cover of Golfweek. I took a ton of heat for that one. Glad you saw it.

[William_G]

jeez

we all know the best is in the mind's eye

not sure what motivated BB to post this dumpster fire as it only undermines BN

but TD took the bait above

cheers and happy trails

[Matthew Prince]

I had a wonderful time at Ballyneal last summer. Great course, great overall experience out there. Pure fun. Really, really enjoyed it.


However, for my money, I'd take Friars Head in a landslide over Ballyneal as a pure golf course.


The holes in the dunes at Friars are pretty much all world class, and what they were able to do in the flat part of the property is a master class in modern design. A number of holes at Friars were firmly etched into my memory the very first time I played it and each hole stands out pretty well in my mind; at Ballyneal I need to think through the walk around the property to remember certain holes. Maybe it's a function of the overall experience that my memories of Ballyneal are more about the fun time I had than the golf course itself (and maybe some would argue this even makes it a superior course) ... but given 10 rounds between the two, I'd play 8 at Friars and 2 at Ballyneal.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

Looking forward to playing there in 2 weeks for the first time and adding my 2 cents to this mix.

[Ross Harmon]

Based on photos and comments, I might agree... until, perhaps, Tara Iti opened.

I haven't been to Tara Iti yet, but it certainly may be the most photogenic modern course in the world!

[Scott Szabo]

We had our member guest this past weekend and the course is playing beautifully.  It's amazing how quickly the course can change by simply varying the pin positions.  P.S. Don't be short on 11!

[Shelly Jones]

I have been fortunate to play most of the courses in discussion, including Ballyneal twice.
In some respects, I think Ballyneal is penalized in many estimations due to its undefined tee box structure. As a result, the resulting rounds of golf can be substantially different one round to the next. While many (including me) think that is a tremendous attribute, it can also penalize the course due to that very lack of definition and perhaps memorability of each hole.
Second, I think the surrounding topography diminishes its rating. Eastern Colorado has many positive attributes, but it would be hard to argue that the ambience at Ballyneal ranks with Bandon or even Barnbougle.
Lastly, I sense that Ballyneal will always be compared to Sand Hills, and justifiably so. Another comparison would be to Dismal River. In my mind, Sand Hills is an almost mystical golf experience, if for no other reason than the topography and isolation, not to mention its design and routing.Ballyneal does not quite get to that point, notwithstanding its very strong design.

[Kalen Braley]

Shelly,


I'm not near as traveled as many on here, but I loved the remoteness of Ballyneal as well as the tee box arrangement.  They were both huge positives in my mind. Not having to fight the big crowds like at a place like Bandon, was also nice.


That being said I've never been to Sand Hills or Dismal, but in the end its all relative I guess.

[John_Cullum]

In my mind, Sand Hills is an almost mystical golf experience, if for no other reason than the topography and isolation, not to mention its design and routing.Ballyneal does not quite get to that point, notwithstanding its very strong design.

Is the topography or isolation really that different between the three?

[Kalen Braley]

In my mind, Sand Hills is an almost mystical golf experience, if for no other reason than the topography and isolation, not to mention its design and routing.Ballyneal does not quite get to that point, notwithstanding its very strong design.

Is the topography or isolation really that different between the three?

John,


That was kinda my point.  Its like having 3 super gorgeous women standing in front of you and trying to decide if the blonde, brunette, or red head is "Best".


There are no right or wrong answers here...

[Steve Lang]

    kinda like... "Its not the end of the Universe... but you can see it from there."


The 42 Cafe..

[Tom_Doak]

In my mind, Sand Hills is an almost mystical golf experience, if for no other reason than the topography and isolation, not to mention its design and routing.Ballyneal does not quite get to that point, notwithstanding its very strong design.

Is the topography or isolation really that different between the three?

The topography and isolation IS different between the three; each has its own character. 


Some will prefer the more rugged contours at Ballyneal, some the more sweeping contours of Sand Hills or Dismal.  I don't get the people who think one is way better than another on that basis.

[John_Cullum]

In my mind, Sand Hills is an almost mystical golf experience, if for no other reason than the topography and isolation, not to mention its design and routing.Ballyneal does not quite get to that point, notwithstanding its very strong design.

Is the topography or isolation really that different between the three?

The topography and isolation IS different between the three; each has its own character. 


Some will prefer the more rugged contours at Ballyneal, some the more sweeping contours of Sand Hills or Dismal.  I don't get the people who think one is way better than another on that basis.

I get you as far as topography, but the isolation factor is identical between Sand Hills and Dismal River, and practically as much at Ballyneal

[Tom_Doak]

I get you as far as topography, but the isolation factor is identical between Sand Hills and Dismal River, and practically as much at Ballyneal

No, not really.  Yes, you can see a couple of buildings and a hog farm from the highest points at Ballyneal, and not at Sand Hills or Dismal.  [And you see the clubhouse at Dismal from the Red course.] 


But I'm not sure if Shelly is referring to that when he gushes about Sand Hills' isolation, or whether it's about the 50-mile drive to get there.  The drive into Ballyneal is not the same.  The drive into Dismal IS more or less the same, but half the people making the comparison are only driving there from Sand Hills, so all the credit goes to Sand Hills.


To me, that 50-mile drive is worth zero points out of 1,000 in rating a course.  [Likewise, a hog farm four miles away isn't much of a deduction.]  But some people have got it being worth a lot.  And it's not just Sand Hills ... the same goes for Bandon, for Dornoch, for Woodhall Spa, etc., and often at the same time it doesn't count for Sandpines or for Golspie.  It's amazing what people can come up with to justify their love.

[George Pazin]

.... It's amazing what people can come up with to justify their love.

Ahhhh, therein lies the rub...


I think most people decide what a course is after playing it, often times even just once. Then every thought thereafter becomes an exercise in confirming what they felt/saw. I think it is the rare individual - on here, in rankings panels, writing for mags, whatever - who plays a course, thinks about it, plays it again, thinks about it again, walks it, thinks about it, etc etc, before coming up with a conclusion.


There's a practical reason for this - most of us simply don't have the time or resources to to take the latter approach.


But that's all the more reason to seek those who do the former, read their thoughts, think about them, evaluate them in the context of your experiences, etc etc.


Most life is about two things: denial and confirmation bias.


You can quote me on that.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I am surprised that Cabot Cliffs has yet to be mentioned in this thread as I think it deserves to be in the running and has a number of VERY memorable holes, like 2,6,7,9,15,16,17,18. The first 15 1/2 holes are spectacular but then you crest the hill on 15 and see Margaree Island and it becomes out of this world. It is kind of like Springsteen's Born to Run - it is rocking at 110% but then, somehow, in the middle of the song they manage to take it up a notch.

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