[Kalen Braley]

George,


Using Google maps, I looked up two random cities... Edinburgh to Carlisle.  Estimated Travel time is 2 hours 15 minutes for a 92 mile drive.


92 miles?  That's only a tad over an hour out west on the Interstate. 

[George Pazin]

Kalen, I appreciate the shout out, but I think that was meant for another....


Seriously, though, if your evaluation of ANYTHING involves the difference between a 3 hour drive and a 5 hour drive, you should be embarrassed by the life you lead.


EMBARRASSED. I'm amazed you have the guts to post it...

[Kalen Braley]

My bad George,


Meant to address that to Eric!


I think at the end of the day, all this mess just comes down to personal tastes and preferences.  IF you like history and the grand Old lady and the crowds and a lively intimate bar at night, then TOC is your course.  If its about being with a handful of buddies in a super remote location with great steaks and a drink after 36 holes and staring at the stars and a quiet evening, then maybe its Sand Hills...


P.S.  I will give JK credit for coming up with a lively debate topic as there are no cut and drys on this one...


P.P.S.  George both my father and bother were and are highway/traffic engineers.  Sorry if discussing highway logistics makes you blush. 

[George Pazin]

My bad George,


Meant to address that to Eric!


I think at the end of the day, all this mess just comes down to personal tastes and preferences.  IF you like history and the grand Old lady and the crowds and a lively intimate bar at night, then TOC is your course.  If its about being with a handful of buddies in a super remote location with great steaks and a drink after 36 holes and staring at the stars and a quiet evening, then maybe its Sand Hills...


P.S.  I will give JK credit for coming up with a lively debate topic as there are no cut and drys on this one...


P.P.S.  George both my father and bother were and are highway/traffic engineers.  Sorry if discussing highway logistics makes you blush. 

No worries, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to vent.


I can think of a lot of reasons why I prefer one course over another, none of those reasons involve driving a car...

[Mark Chaplin]

I would be absolutely stunned if it’s not.

What is one thing that you find superior at Sand Hills?

Haven’t been to either but I’d imagine the steak is better in Nebraska...

Jim having eaten a fantastic rare chateaubriand tonight at Kinnettles- £60 for two including cocktail each and a generous glass of red - I’d disagree plus it was 50% of the SH price.

[David Davis]

Is it plausible to believe that the steaks at Sand Hills are overrated? The course is amazing. The food is average, nowhere near Top 500 World 

[JESII]

Mark, I'm happy you had a nice meal.


David, if you don't mind, what are the obvious reasons not many of our UK friends have traveled to Sand Hills?


Mike H, are the two shot holes mundane? I too think par 4's are the real guts of golf.






Regarding the quality of the respective lands for golf, does TOC have a single shot that requires the judgement of elevation change?



Just asking...again, I have not been to either...

[Mark Pearce]

Based only on what I've heard.


Seems a tad ironic Sand Hills is being blasted for being a "long drive" when everything I've heard about Scotlands travel system, by train or automobile is just as bad if not worse.


Yes we have long distances in between our towns and cities west of the Mississippi, but at least we have a good highway system to get us there relatively quickly.. 

What on earth are  you talking about?  St Andrews is an easy 60 minute drive from Edinburgh airport.  Your willingness to comment on this  thread without ever being close to TOC is remarkable.  Your willingness to believe garbage without critical thought extraordinary.

[Mark Pearce]

Why is Texas steak considered better than Aberdeen Angus?

An excellent question.  Which no-one appears to want to address.  I assume it's all the hormones......

[Pete Lavallee]

David,


Can an American really buy a summer Links ticket for TOC? I thought you have to be a registered voter before you can purchase a Links ticket.

[Jon Wiggett]

George,


Using Google maps, I looked up two random cities... Edinburgh to Carlisle.  Estimated Travel time is 2 hours 15 minutes for a 92 mile drive.


92 miles?  That's only a tad over an hour out west on the Interstate. 

except Carlisle isn't in Scotland.

[Mark Pearce]

David, if you don't mind, what are the obvious reasons not many of our UK friends have traveled to Sand Hills?

I'm not David, but, unlike him, I am from the UK. 


I think there are a number of reasons.  First, very, very few UK golfers have heard of Sand Hills.  Of those who have, there's no doubt that its inaccessibility and its remoteness from other well known venues (not just golf venues but major cities) is another factor and, finally, access.  I get the impression that Sand Hills is not as difficult to get a game at as many other US private clubs (though that might be entirely wrong) but I have no idea how I would go about getting a game there.  There are may be a dozen US courses I want to see  before i get to SH, though, so I haven't looked in to this, as I have with one or two others.

[David Davis]

David,


Can an American really buy a summer Links ticket for TOC? I thought you have to be a registered voter before you can purchase a Links ticket.

Pete,


I'm not the expert but I know several American's that have done it. I'm sure others can chime in and answer this in more detail and just to note the LInks ticket is not just for TOC it's for everything in St. Andrews as far as I know, though I think you have to pay extra if you want to play Kingsbarns but someone will correct me. (maybe it doesn't include Kingsbarns).


None of the guys I knew had anything to do with voting in Scotland so thats a no for certain. For all I know they could of signed up for a class at the University or something but I don't believe so.


This link explains a little. I guess it's the Open Ticket (seems to be a non-resident ticket)


https://www.standrews.com/links-ticketholder

[David Davis]

David, if you don't mind, what are the obvious reasons not many of our UK friends have traveled to Sand Hills?

Jim, Mark already chimed in here and I guess his answer is pretty close to what I'd say. It's really private first of all, that's the biggest deterent. I do think nearly anyone who is a fan of golf courses in general on an international level will of heard of it. Mark said they won't know it but if you've heard of Coore & Crenshaw then you've heard of Sand Hills. I'd say all the golfers I personally know in the UK have heard of it. As I mentioned it's extremely difficult to get to, John of course disagreed but I'd call it extremely difficult if you live in the US. From the UK you first have to fly all the way to someplace like Denver I suppose, most likely not direct as it's not a hub that I'm aware of.


With every one of these extra steps it becomes infinitely less likely that someone would want to make the effort. On top of that, the UK and Ireland are full of amazing links courses that play similarly and have been around for 100 years +. Then there is also the expense of the entire trip and even when combined with Ballyneal and perhaps Dismal River and maybe CGC and Cherry Hills or something like that it's just really a trip more for people that hang out on GCA than it would be for even the average high end golf traveler from the UK or anywhere else in Europe for that matter though UK golfers as a whole are more sophisticated in terms of their course knowledge and travel to play different courses.

[Sean_A]

Regarding the quality of the respective lands for golf, does TOC have a single shot that requires the judgement of elevation change?

Just asking...again, I have not been to either...

Jim

Any meaningful elevation change is the one weakness with TOC's terrain.  However, the main issue with elevation change on open sites such as TOC and Sand Hills is controlling ball flight.  In that regard, the odd stances TOC throws at golfers, to some degree, makes up for the lack of elevation change.  On the flip side, having no serious elevation change does help make TOC a great walk. I am not sure the same could be said for Sand Hills.  I have played a great many hilly courses, some of which I greatly admire, yet very few pull off the great walk aspect and none compare with TOC in that regard.  IMO, courses aren't simply about hitting the shots, the experience of playing the course is very important in terms of enjoying the game.  I hope to play Sand Hills one day and I hope the experience of playing the course is every bit as grand as at TOC.

Ciao

[JESII]

Good answer Sean, thank you.


I agree that walkability is a primary desired characteristic in a golf experience...the Mucci test of "do I want to run right back to the first tee and play again?".


If, however, there's to be an actual conversation about two of the elite courses in the world, as opposed to this ridiculous pissing match about connector flights etc...we should recognize each distinction.


I will say, my suspicion is that I could much more likely play faster and more often at Sand Hills than at TOC considering all factors once I am on the property. Not sure if this is true but it seems TOC would be akin to Pebble Beach here in that you're 95% likely to fall behind a few groups that will take 5 hours to play.

[Sean_A]

I will say, my suspicion is that I could much more likely play faster and more often at Sand Hills than at TOC considering all factors once I am on the property. Not sure if this is true but it seems TOC would be akin to Pebble Beach here in that you're 95% likely to fall behind a few groups that will take 5 hours to play.

Jim

Therein lies the difference between a worldly popular public course and a very private, remote course.  It is what it is.  Both models work and both models are essential. TOC can be a time grind even if played in four hours...it shouldn't take that long to play such a great walking course.  I spose this problem exists at most all of the world famous public courses...they are as much about money as anything else...no such burden at private clubs.

Ciao

[Niall C]

David, if you don't mind, what are the obvious reasons not many of our UK friends have traveled to Sand Hills?

Jim, Mark already chimed in here and I guess his answer is pretty close to what I'd say. It's really private first of all, that's the biggest deterent. I do think nearly anyone who is a fan of golf courses in general on an international level will of heard of it. Mark said they won't know it but if you've heard of Coore & Crenshaw then you've heard of Sand Hills. I'd say all the golfers I personally know in the UK have heard of it. As I mentioned it's extremely difficult to get to, John of course disagreed but I'd call it extremely difficult if you live in the US. From the UK you first have to fly all the way to someplace like Denver I suppose, most likely not direct as it's not a hub that I'm aware of.


With every one of these extra steps it becomes infinitely less likely that someone would want to make the effort. On top of that, the UK and Ireland are full of amazing links courses that play similarly and have been around for 100 years +. Then there is also the expense of the entire trip and even when combined with Ballyneal and perhaps Dismal River and maybe CGC and Cherry Hills or something like that it's just really a trip more for people that hang out on GCA than it would be for even the average high end golf traveler from the UK or anywhere else in Europe for that matter though UK golfers as a whole are more sophisticated in terms of their course knowledge and travel to play different courses.

Without wishing to go off topic I have to say I don’t agree with David. I think if you asked the average golfer in the UK, they might be able to remember Ben Crenshaw from his playing days, if they were old enough, but I very much doubt that all but a small percentage would know him or Bill Coore as golf course architects.

Similarly with US course names. Would they have heard of Pebble Beach ? – yeah, probably. Augusta National – almost certainly, particularly if you mention it’s the Masters course, but to suggest any but a very few have heard of even Bandon, never mind Sand Hills is I think wishful thinking.

Niall

[John Mayhugh]

As I mentioned it's extremely difficult to get to, John of course disagreed but I'd call it extremely difficult if you live in the US.

David,
Your comprehension is a bit off.

I was responding to this contention of yours:
It's extremely difficult for anyone without a helicoptor to reach, increasing the perceived value.

With this response of mine:
The helicopter comment is a bit dramatic, don't you think? I would guess the vast majority of people get there by other means. You may not realize this, but the USA is a rather large country, and people here are probably more accustomed to traveling longer distances to get to places worth visiting. Sand Hills is easily worth the added effort. Besides, I can make it to Sand Hills in no more time than it takes me to get to Bandon.

My point was that it is not really any more difficult to get to than Bandon. You certainly don't need a helicopter. A 4-5 hour drive is inconvenient, but if you're going to Sand Hills to stay and play for a couple of days or more, it's worth the trouble. i don't think 10 hours of driving makes someone give an artificial boost to their assessment of the course. If anything, the amount of travel required makes one more likely to compare it to other long travel options in the UK.

Then you made one other comment that shows you missed what I was trying to say:
However, you said it like it's a given but you happen to be in an incredibly small group that has the luxury of access through friends etc there. Everyone can play the Old Course and I assure you far more people have played multiple rounds there than will ever play Sand Hills so you are really arguing from an extremely privelidged place if you want to throw that in.

I don't see what this statement has to do with comparing SH to TOC. Your original post acted as though the people that visit Sand Hills and love it are some sort of star-struck hoi polloi that think SH is great because it's private or took some extra travel time to get to. Very likely, people that are visiting there have played a number of other great courses and thus are able to assess the course without overly weighting things like remoteness. Of the people that have played both SH and TOC (those are the only ones that can compare the two - right?), I would think that folks were able to play more rounds at SH than at TOC. That was my point. Of course there are more people in history that have played multiple rounds at TOC, but if those same people haven't also played SH, then they aren't the ones you suggest who are smitten at Sand Hills for all the wrong reasons.

It is nice to see you standing up for all of the people who can't access private courses 

 

[Eric Smith]

Golf industry vs hobbyist perspectives always seem to clash. Makes threads like these threads like these I suppose!

[JMEvensky]

Why is Texas steak considered better than Aberdeen Angus?

An excellent question.  Which no-one appears to want to address.  I assume it's all the hormones...…

Because it's from Texas, the center of the known universe.--signed, UT Longhorn 1977

[Sean_A]

Why is Texas steak considered better than Aberdeen Angus?

An excellent question.  Which no-one appears to want to address.  I assume it's all the hormones...…

Because it's from Texas, the center of the known universe.--signed, UT Longhorn 1977

Aye, but according to the Canucks, if its not Scottish its crap!

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Good answer Sean, thank you.


I agree that walkability is a primary desired characteristic in a golf experience...the Mucci test of "do I want to run right back to the first tee and play again?".


If, however, there's to be an actual conversation about two of the elite courses in the world, as opposed to this ridiculous pissing match about connector flights etc...we should recognize each distinction.


I will say, my suspicion is that I could much more likely play faster and more often at Sand Hills than at TOC considering all factors once I am on the property. Not sure if this is true but it seems TOC would be akin to Pebble Beach here in that you're 95% likely to fall behind a few groups that will take 5 hours to play.

Jim,


I believe a player of your caliber should evaluate the great courses in the world in the mind of a competitor. Decide which course in the world you believe to be the finest you could ever play and set a long term goal to qualify to play there in a tournament. Pine Valley, Pebble and St. Andrews are all in that very special mix. Who cares how long they take to play behind a bunch of tourists.


Funny, as a pipe dream I always thought I could stumble into playing Pebble in competition. For that reason I never ponied up to play as a tourist. There is always the AT&T so I haven't given up yet.

[JESII]

I agree that judging courses through our own lense is the right way. How could I guess what a course feels like to you?


I’ve been very fortunate to have played many top courses in competition but disagree that I should only judge them in that context. It carries extra weight, but wouldn’t want to limit it to that.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,


I'm talking about what you tell people in polite conversation. I would think that anyone who knows you would ask your opinion based on your reputation as a great player. In that don't you believe they deserve an answer in that context? That context being one that eliminates Sand Hills from consideration.


I wish you had played St. Andrews because putting her against Pine Valley would be an interesting conversation.

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