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Steve Lang

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2018, 10:59:31 AM »
 8)  Mike,


That's kinda like starting kids at 100 or 150 yards... when they can par, they can move back.


I'm reminded of when Carol Mann came to the WCC, one of first things she did for the ladies was on the North Course, she had the back tees dug up and used the dirt to build new forward tees... Ladies loved it, more ways than one!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Ronald Montesano

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2018, 12:10:21 PM »
What is the WCC?



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Jay Mickle

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2018, 12:40:53 PM »
I recall once hearing that to equalize the approach shot clubs that courses should be played at 30 times the length of the drive. Based on your 140 yard drive that would put the course at approximately 4200 yards. Very close to your 4400 yards. I believe that that would work for most golfers though it would certainly get a lot of protest from the long hitters who might be asked to play on 8500+ yard courses. If the length of courses were based upon having to hit a rescue into a green on a par four there would be even more protest.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2018, 12:47:30 PM »
I'm having trouble with this question.


Are you asking how often are women on the green in regulation?  Because even as a 20+ handicap, if i'm on the green i almost always feel like its a birdie opportunity unless i have a monster putt (40+ feet away)!


P.S.  I would agree that women's tees on most courses I play are woefully too long...

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2018, 08:15:36 PM »
At 71, I have moved up from the back tees to tees that play about 6300 or 6400 yards. My wife has nowhere to go unless she tees it up in the fairway. Most of the courses we play are over 5000 yards. She used to score in the mid 80's but cannot reach any par fours that are over 325 yards. It is easy to say that par is meaningless or relative, but it sure is nice to be able to hit greens in regulation. 4400 would be a nice change for her.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

MCirba

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2018, 08:28:02 PM »
At 71, I have moved up from the back tees to tees that play about 6300 or 6400 yards. My wife has nowhere to go unless she tees it up in the fairway. Most of the courses we play are over 5000 yards. She used to score in the mid 80's but cannot reach any par fours that are over 325 yards. It is easy to say that par is meaningless or relative, but it sure is nice to be able to hit greens in regulation. 4400 would be a nice change for her.


Amen, Brother Tommy.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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Garland Bayley

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2018, 10:34:42 PM »
When the equipment improved to the point of holes becoming known as 1, 2, or 3 shot holes, old time architects debated removing greens from the courses so the game would not turn into a putting contest. If you have the 1, 2, and 3 shot hole blinders on then you start making a big deal about birdie opportunities. How do you explain people trying to play a golf ball across North America, Australia, Mongolia? These are all things I have seen news of or read about. How many birdies do you think they make. Why do I have to be bored by constantly interrupting play to putt the ball at a small hole? If I wanted to putt all the time, I could go to the miniature golf course. I'd rather go to the driving range and bomb away. I am sure the vast majority of golfers prefer the driving range to the putting course.

Raise the par on your course. Then women will have more birdie opportunities. Moray Old has men's par 70, women's par 75. Nairn Golf Club has men's par 71, women's par 75. Royal Dornoch has men's par 70, women's par 76. Thankfully there are some golf courses where women don't have stop every two shots to putt for birdie.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ken Moum

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2018, 11:46:05 PM »


Raise the par on your course. Then women will have more birdie opportunities. Moray Old has men's par 70, women's par 75. Nairn Golf Club has men's par 71, women's par 75. Royal Dornoch has men's par 70, women's par 76. Thankfully there are some golf courses where women don't have stop every two shots to putt for birdie.


My wife and I have played all those courses.


I can tell you this, it's not about making pars. Even after finding out that the second nine at RDC has FIVE par fives for women, she still thinks it is an interminable slog.


There's a reason why you don't see very many women on the course.  There are, however, a fair number of women who go up and play Golspie.


I've said for several years that the recip deal with Golspie is great, it's where RDC members go when they want to have a fun round. (As an overseas member of Golspie, the recip is an even better deal going the other way. ;-)
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Greg Chambers

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2018, 12:03:58 AM »
When the equipment improved to the point of holes becoming known as 1, 2, or 3 shot holes, old time architects debated removing greens from the courses so the game would not turn into a putting contest. If you have the 1, 2, and 3 shot hole blinders on then you start making a big deal about birdie opportunities. How do you explain people trying to play a golf ball across North America, Australia, Mongolia? These are all things I have seen news of or read about. How many birdies do you think they make. Why do I have to be bored by constantly interrupting play to putt the ball at a small hole? If I wanted to putt all the time, I could go to the miniature golf course. I'd rather go to the driving range and bomb away. I am sure the vast majority of golfers prefer the driving range to the putting course.

Raise the par on your course. Then women will have more birdie opportunities. Moray Old has men's par 70, women's par 75. Nairn Golf Club has men's par 71, women's par 75. Royal Dornoch has men's par 70, women's par 76. Thankfully there are some golf courses where women don't have stop every two shots to putt for birdie.


Although I understand your point...for 99.99% of all the golfers I’ve met, including women, the point of the game is to make a score.  And to make a score, you must putt the ball into the hole.  So it’s just natural that the more opportunity a golfer has to make a score, the more fun their round will be.  I’ve never met anybody that would prefer to hit golf shot after golf shot after golf shot without the opportunity to make a score.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Garland Bayley

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2018, 02:08:43 AM »
Hey Greg,

I'd like to see your survey forms, and your statistical calculations.  ;D

Also, please explain why so many on this site witness to the fact that they very often see players heading off to play par 6, 7, and 8 holes. Every time you see a complaint about high handicappers wanting to, or in fact playing from the tips they are giving witness to these high par lovers. ;D

Ken,

Many very accomplished male players on this site consider RD a bit of a slog, so your argument doesn't convince me much.
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Greg Chambers

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2018, 02:47:37 AM »
My survey forms and statistical calculations are based upon experiences...I’ll admit I’ve not actually put pen to paper.  But I think you get my drift.


As to you second point, you’re on your own there...I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Thomas Dai

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2018, 08:31:21 AM »


I wonder how many men would continue to play the game if for their whole golf career they found themselves hitting solid drive, followed by 2-3-4 solid fairway metals followed by an iron to the green and if they hit it offline having to play from thick grass that their arms and wrists can’t really cope with? Plus having to hit over forced carries on a pretty regular basis.
Atb




Tommy Williamsen

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2018, 09:24:07 AM »
When the magazine GOLF FOR WOMEN was up and running they ranked "women friendly" resorts. One of the criteria was that the golf course had to be under 5000 yards.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Garland Bayley

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2018, 11:08:38 AM »
When the magazine GOLF FOR WOMEN was up and running they ranked "women friendly" resorts. One of the criteria was that the golf course had to be under 5000 yards.

Clearly they have the blinders on.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2018, 11:20:52 AM »


I wonder how many men would continue to play the game if for their whole golf career they found themselves hitting solid drive, followed by 2-3-4 solid fairway metals followed by an iron to the green ...

I think you just described a very significant contingent of senior men who show up every morning to play like that at their club. They hit it straight, and have decent short games and handicaps in the high twenties into the thirties. A two shotter is anything over 150 yards, a three shotter is anything over 280, 4 > 410, 5 >540.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ken Moum

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2018, 04:12:18 PM »


I wonder how many men would continue to play the game if for their whole golf career they found themselves hitting solid drive, followed by 2-3-4 solid fairway metals followed by an iron to the green ...

I think you just described a very significant contingent of senior men who show up every morning to play like that at their club. They hit it straight, and have decent short games and handicaps in the high twenties into the thirties. A two shotter is anything over 150 yards, a three shotter is anything over 280, 4 > 410, 5 >540.


True, and increasingly those guys, and I, are moving to tees well under 6,000 yards. When I was young, golfers my age (70) played from the same tees as everyone else on my nine-hole home course.


But it was barely 3,000 yards, and without irrigated fairways they could reach even the 400-yard par fours in two.


I played there a couple of years ago and the fairways are now irrigated, and no more than 2/3 the width they were 45 years ago. And they've had to add a set of "senior" tees to make it even remotely playable for guys like me.


It has long been Alice Dye's contention that irrigated fairways alone are a good enough reason to make forward tees ~4800 yards, which all of her husband's courses do. And the women I know love them.


K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Garland Bayley

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2018, 08:21:50 PM »
The women at my club refuse to play the forward tees until they get so old just swinging a club exhausts them.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2018, 08:27:59 PM »
@ Garland


Why don't you post your club's  yardage, slope& rating from the various tees? Your members seem to be gems.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2018, 09:22:40 PM »
Ask the average male how they'd feel about a course that had 10-12 holes where their second shot (and sometimes third shot) was nothing more than a trying to advance the ball down the fairway.Every good player hates unreachable par fives, because the second shot is no fun.  Most women hit between 12 and 20 of those a round.
I don't really agree with that. I play a few courses with unreachable par fives… and I'm not a short hitter. It's about hitting two good shots that put you in the best position (angle) to get close with your third. The second shot isn't pointless. It's about getting it close and on a good angle.

And who cares if a 20-handicapper woman who drives it 140 yards can have a lot of birdie putts. If a 20-handicapper has a lot of birdie putts… she probably isn't a 20 handicapper.

The USGA course rating guide credits the "Bogey Golfer" (female) as hitting two shots 280 yards (IIRC): 150 and then 130.

That's not to say that we shouldn't have 4400-yard tees at all… just that I don't think they need to be standard at all courses. Their course rating would be pretty low (so 20 handicappers might make more "pars" but they'd still shoot 17-22 over the course rating), and play would be slow for longer women from those tees, as they may have to wait for the greens to clear on "par fours" to tee off quite often.



Yes, the major issue with way forward tees is 'dead' walking, having to schlep a couple of hundred yards just to get to your tee. Ally is right about positioning of greens close to the most played tees, not the back ones, but I would make two observations, firstly this seems obvious but you would be amazed how often courses are laid out in a linear fashion and you have to walk past three sets of tees to get to yours…

I've heard from some people that they don't like tees "back" from the green on the previous hole for safety reasons - a shank, a toe job, etc. can go sideways a bit and hit someone on the previous green. No real concern for that if the back tee is hitting away from the previous green entirely.



Women golfers, like men golfers, are not a single species. There are women who hit the ball less than 100 yards with their best drive and there are those that can really belt it. One set of 'ladies' tees is no solution, just as one set of 'men's' tees isn't. The only answer is to completely remove sex from tee boxes (unarguably a good thing surely?  :)  ).

This exactly. What's it called… the… Longleaf tee system. Doesn't matter what your gender is - just how far you hit your tee shot.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Brock Lynch

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2018, 04:11:29 AM »
Why not have multiple sets of tees and players can decide for themselves which tee is best? I never understood the objection to adding more sets of tees. My wife and I have played many courses (especially overseas) that are just too long from the forward tees. The premise here is that we are all trying to get around the course in the fewest shots. In that pursuit, I have always thought that the highest level of enjoyment comes from great variety in the shots that need to be played on a course. I try to play the tees where I will hopefully hit every club in the bag. On most courses I have that option and unfortunately my wife does not.

Sean_A

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2018, 04:54:57 AM »

Raise the par on your course. Then women will have more birdie opportunities. Moray Old has men's par 70, women's par 75. Nairn Golf Club has men's par 71, women's par 75. Royal Dornoch has men's par 70, women's par 76. Thankfully there are some golf courses where women don't have stop every two shots to putt for birdie.


Or, par could be raised and yardage lowered.  If its a feel good factor we are hoping to achieve, why not?  I have come across many par 3 length holes that were labelled 4s from men's tees.  Jeepers, it sounds silly in this day and age to write men's tees. 


I have long been a proponent of bringing back bogey score and leaving par to the experts. Makes sense to me, especially when we consider bifurcation. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dave McCollum

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2018, 05:07:52 PM »
At our course women and couples play a fairly high number of the total rounds.  The women’s league is easily the most popular of any course in our area.  One night a week the women take up the entire course, we have a couple of women only tournaments a year and there are flights for women in just about all other tournaments.  This thread caused me to think why women like our course.  We also easily have the most popular junior golf program of all courses in our area with over 300 kids playing weekly golf events during the season.  We put a lot of effort into the junior golf program to make that work, especially in course set up and scheduling, so let’s ignore that for this discussion.   

I don’t play with women very often, never thought our course, based purely on yardage or distance, was especially friendly to women, or that the design and routing of the forward tees was very out of the ordinary.  The forward tees are 5,172 yards, play to a par of 74 for women and 72 for men.  The other “regular” tees are 6,028, 6,464, and 6,807 on the card.  However, we have and maintain tees so that we can set up the course from about 4,800 to 7,000 yards.  In my mind, this is just how the course has evolved over the years to provide the most enjoyable golf to the greatest number of golfers we can.  We’re just a good affordable golf course in a great landscape.

So, from a design and set up point of view, why do women like it?  My conclusions this thread prompted me to think about:

·         [/font]Although long for women, we have a higher par on the two longest holes, par 4’s for men, par 5’s for women.
·         [/font]There is one par three with a 100+/- forced carry over water from the regular forward tee.  The hole has a generous bailout fairway around the trouble and even an alternate forward tee for this fairway not over water.
·         [/font]All holes have open fronts and allow “run up” shots.  There are 3 elevated greens where a ‘run up” isn’t the best approach for all golfers, but ample room to miss short.  Most of the fall offs are to the sides or behind the greens. 
·         [/font]There are just three forward tees where women riding or walking together go to separate tees from the men.  On two of these the women can play simultaneously with the men, both shorter walks from the previous greens.
·         [/font]Overall, the forward tees integrate well with the routing of the course.  Men and women playing together do, in fact, play together.  Only a couple of times do the longer and shorter golfers split up and go to different tees.  Makes no difference riding or walking, all golfers play the same course.  The back tees are the longest walk, the forward tees the shortest, but there isn’t much difference between all the tees in terms of the distance and difficulty of the walk.

If one wants to find the best route through a natural landscape, follow the game trails.  That’s more or less how our course has evolved.  Tees, features, and changes have evolved where golfers want to play.  Cart (and maintenance) paths are ugly, but a necessary evil if a course has carts because you try to concentrate the wear and tear in specific places that have the least impact on the golf and aesthetics.  If cart paths are not where golfers want to play, then one must force their use or put up the consequences.  Placing, constructing, and hiding cart paths must be one of the hardest and most expensive aspects of designing a course.  Mostly, ours are where the golfers want to play and, yes, they’re ugly.

 To some extent, a similar process has guided the evolution of our forward tees.  No brilliant golf design, we just put them where golfers want to play.  Seems to work fairly well for the women, kids, mixed groups, and older folks.  Could our course be improved?  Emphatically, yes.  Should we?  Well, that’s a much more complicated question and essentially what we talk about here.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2018, 08:20:35 PM »
Dave's post so it can be read.

At our course women and couples play a fairly high number of the total rounds.  The women’s league is easily the most popular of any course in our area.  One night a week the women take up the entire course, we have a couple of women only tournaments a year and there are flights for women in just about all other tournaments.  This thread caused me to think why women like our course.  We also easily have the most popular junior golf program of all courses in our area with over 300 kids playing weekly golf events during the season.  We put a lot of effort into the junior golf program to make that work, especially in course set up and scheduling, so let’s ignore that for this discussion.   
 
I don’t play with women very often, never thought our course, based purely on yardage or distance, was especially friendly to women, or that the design and routing of the forward tees was very out of the ordinary.  The forward tees are 5,172 yards, play to a par of 74 for women and 72 for men.  The other “regular” tees are 6,028, 6,464, and 6,807 on the card.  However, we have and maintain tees so that we can set up the course from about 4,800 to 7,000 yards.  In my mind, this is just how the course has evolved over the years to provide the most enjoyable golf to the greatest number of golfers we can.  We’re just a good affordable golf course in a great landscape.

So, from a design and set up point of view, why do women like it?  My conclusions this thread prompted me to think about:

Although long for women, we have a higher par on the two longest holes, par 4’s for men, par 5’s for women.

There is one par three with a 100+/- forced carry over water from the regular forward tee.  The hole has a generous bailout fairway around the trouble and even an alternate forward tee for this fairway not over water.

All holes have open fronts and allow “run up” shots.  There are 3 elevated greens where a ‘run up” isn’t the best approach for all golfers, but ample room to miss short.  Most of the fall offs are to the sides or behind the greens. 

There are just three forward tees where women riding or walking together go to separate tees from the men.  On two of these the women can play simultaneously with the men, both shorter walks from the previous greens.

Overall, the forward tees integrate well with the routing of the course.  Men and women playing together do, in fact, play together.  Only a couple of times do the longer and shorter golfers split up and go to different tees.  Makes no difference riding or walking, all golfers play the same course.  The back tees are the longest walk, the forward tees the shortest, but there isn’t much difference between all the tees in terms of the distance and difficulty of the walk.

If one wants to find the best route through a natural landscape, follow the game trails.  That’s more or less how our course has evolved.  Tees, features, and changes have evolved where golfers want to play.  Cart (and maintenance) paths are ugly, but a necessary evil if a course has carts because you try to concentrate the wear and tear in specific places that have the least impact on the golf and aesthetics.  If cart paths are not where golfers want to play, then one must force their use or put up the consequences.  Placing, constructing, and hiding cart paths must be one of the hardest and most expensive aspects of designing a course.  Mostly, ours are where the golfers want to play and, yes, they’re ugly.

To some extent, a similar process has guided the evolution of our forward tees.  No brilliant golf design, we just put them where golfers want to play.  Seems to work fairly well for the women, kids, mixed groups, and older folks.  Could our course be improved?  Emphatically, yes.  Should we?  Well, that’s a much more complicated question and essentially what we talk about here.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Philip Gawith

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2018, 08:28:12 PM »
Completely agree with you Nicolas. For my wife- 24 handicapper who hits a reasonable ball- 4,800 yards, or less, is perfect. As someone else noted, playing courses where most holes are out of range in regulation, hitting a never ending succession of woods, is not great fun. And putting for birdie is!


She LOVES playing modern designs where she will sometimes tee off 120 yards or so in front of me. Looking forward to playing one of your courses!


Philip

ward peyronnin

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Re: How often do women have birdie opportunity ?
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2018, 08:36:21 PM »
If one is smart one suggests a set up that allows as many as possible
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman