Chairman Fred Ridley says 13th hole no longer asks for "a momentous decision"

[Matthew Essig]

https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/4/4/fred-ridleys-momentous-comments-on-the-distance-issue?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


He also touches on the distance issue.


Q. You mentioned that you've had -- you've got encouragement from the governing bodies and other golf organizations about the feedback you've provided to them -- or on the distance issue. What has that feedback been, and have you asked them specifically to explore any certain aspects of the distance issue as it pertains to the play of the tournament here?


CHAIRMAN FRED S. RIDLEY: Well, as I mentioned, we do have an open dialog. I'm very familiar with the public statements that have been made recently. You know, our focus initially is on our golf course. We are intent on making sure that we maintain the design philosophy that Mr. Jones and Alister MacKenzie devised. And with the shot values that they thought were important, we have done what we felt was appropriate through the years to maintain that philosophy and that design, those design parameters.

There's a great quote from Bobby Jones dealing specifically with the 13th hole, which has been lengthened over time, and he said that the decision to go for the green in two should be a momentous one. And I would have to say that our observations of these great players hitting middle and even short irons into that hole is not a momentous decision.

And so we think there is an issue, not only there, but in the game generally, that needs to be addressed. The ultimate decision is going to be, I'm confident, a collective one. It's going to be one where all of the stakeholders sit down and come to some agreement.

From our perspective, we will always do what's necessary to maintain the integrity of our golf course. But as I said in my comments, I don't think that's the only approach to this. So my hope is that every organization, every stakeholder involved will look at this issue from a holistic basis and not only what might be in the best interests of their own organization.

We fully appreciate and want-- do not want any action to be taken that's going to make golf harder. We have an obligation to grow the game, and so we're sensitive to that. So these issues don't always coincide. And like any difficult question, it requires compromise and debate. So as long as we're all talking to one another and looking out for what's in the best interest of the game, I'm confident that there's going to be a solution that's going to work for everyone.

[jeffwarne]

........It's going to be one where all of the stakeholders sit down and come to some agreement......

The drumbeat continues....

[JESII]

But it’s all future tense Jeff...does that ring strange to you considering how much drum beat we’ve heard from them lately?


Think maybe these comments are coordinated trial balloons?

[William_G]

something for the pros needs to be done

[JESII]

Having just watched his comments, it’s quite clear there will be no Master’s Ball. He would seemingly fully support a roll back, or even bifurcation, but he’s not going alone...

[JESII]

And Duval just followed with (to me) an incredibly astute comment that the decision is really on the tee now...

[Eric LeFante]

What a fantastic quote from Bobby Jones. The decision clearly was a momentous one for Nick Faldo in 1996 and for all the players that came before him. That’s not the case anymore.

[William_G]

bifurcation...pros and everyone else

[Connor Dougherty]

It seems to be lost on people that a rollback for golfers across the board (which is probably the most sensible solution) is likely to be exponential, so a ball that Dustin Johnson will hit 310 now instead of 340 will likely only cost the player who hits a drive 100 yards 10...

[Cal Seifert]

The battle between ANGC and the equipment manufacturers will be intense. 

[William_G]

LOL, Cal

it will be R&A, USGA, and ANGC together

golf is not about the pros when it is all said and done

this could be Fred Ridley's moment

[Cal Seifert]

LOL, Cal

it will be R&A, USGA, and ANGC together

golf is not about the pros when it is all said and done

this could be Fred Ridley's moment

Fair enough, but the players and companies will not accept this rollback easily.  They unfortunately have the masses on their side.  Go to a pro shop and ask a random guy who buys a new $500 driver every year and wears rickie fowler orange hats what he thinks of a rollback to maintain the strategic principles of Alister Mackenzie designs.  Yes his opinion does not matter, but does the USGA, R&A, and ANGC want to start this controversy?  We'll see.

[Peter Flory]

Manufacturers have been at a dead end for a while and are just cycling through gimmicks to try to sell maxed out equipment.  Wouldn't a rollback be a huge win for them in the short run and more of the same for them in the long run? 


After a rollback, everyone would have to go replace their current equipment.  Once that wave completes, the manufacturers can start BSing us on how they have devised a tweak to either squeeze out greater performance within the rules or provide something that specifically benefits you and your slice. 


And none of this should hurt new entrants into the game, because they won't know the difference anyway. 

[jeffwarne]

Manufacturers have been at a dead end for a while and are just cycling through gimmicks to try to sell maxed out equipment.  Wouldn't a rollback be a huge win for them in the short run and more of the same for them in the long run? 


After a rollback, everyone would have to go replace their current equipment.  Once that wave completes, the manufacturers can start BSing us on how they have devised a tweak to either squeeze out greater performance within the rules or provide something that specifically benefits you and your slice. 

Bingo-exactly as they did with wedges.
and every ball manufacturer besides Titleist- has a lot to gain

[Tim Martin]

It seems a stretch that a 510 yard par five always required a momentous decision. This might have been true for wayward or short hitters but I would posit that a fair amount of players going back to the tournaments’s inception had a fairly good chance with a reasonable drive of getting it on the green in two shots. Push the tee back as is the current intention and game on.

[Rick Lane]

In 1935, the 15th hole was 485.   Gene Sarazens 4 wood double eagle was a shot of 235, so he drove it 250, slightly up hill.  So maybe he (and the best of his day) hits it 275 on the downhill 13th?

At that time, 13 was 480.   So  they were left with a second of 200+, which today is a 7 iron, but then was a 3 iron?

In 1950, Ben Hogans famous shot at Merion was a 213 yard 1 Iron....

[A.G._Crockett]

And Duval just followed with (to me) an incredibly astute comment that the decision is really on the tee now...

I agree with you; I was VERY impressed with Duval's take on that hole.  If I took his meaning correctly, he was saying that moving the tee back to lengthen the second shot significantly would actually REDUCE options, since the current tee shot that results in short irons would be removed.

I think the key point is that it's still the best hole in the world, at least on a Sunday afternoon in April.  Fred Ridley is smart enough to tread lightly into territory that might change that.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Says he will protect course.  Seems like tee is back as far as possible, unless the convince neighboring ACC to dogleg a hole around the new tee.


Doesn't look like there is a lot of room to do something to move 13 green back, with a main entry walkway maybe 30 yards behind.  Could move it south, up the hill, but a) sacrilege, and b) takes creek out of play unless they build an artificial new one, perhaps with waterfall cascading down to original.  Another option would be a higher green with a short cut fairway bank back to the existing creek which would still make reaching the front edge critical, unless you get Freddie Couples luck and your ball stops on the bank just short.

Would actually take a lot of distance for even mid level pros to make a momentous decision.  Figure 290/300 yard drive and 260/270 second for minimum 550/570.  DJ and a half dozen others would need 325/295, and may still be using an iron, making the advantage for long hitters even bigger, no? 


At least, everyone gets a reasonable shot at it now.  Aside from the physical issues noted above, and the history issues which would favor only a new tee, if you had no obstacles, what distance would you set the hole if you were Fred?   I suspect it would be around 550-560 yards, to protect the middle of the field.  Haven't considered the lay up options, but at that length, seems like they would be the same as Crenshaw opined in Geoff S video yesterday, no?

[Tim Martin]

Says he will protect course.  Seems like tee is back as far as possible, unless the convince neighboring ACC to dogleg a hole around the new tee.


Doesn't look like there is a lot of room to do something to move 13 green back, with a main entry walkway maybe 30 yards behind.  Could move it south, up the hill, but a) sacrilege, and b) takes creek out of play unless they build an artificial new one, perhaps with waterfall cascading down to original.  Another option would be a higher green with a short cut fairway bank back to the existing creek which would still make reaching the front edge critical, unless you get Freddie Couples luck and your ball stops on the bank just short.

Would actually take a lot of distance for even mid level pros to make a momentous decision.  Figure 290/300 yard drive and 260/270 second for minimum 550/570.  DJ and a half dozen others would need 325/295, and may still be using an iron, making the advantage for long hitters even bigger, no? 


At least, everyone gets a reasonable shot at it now.  Aside from the physical issues noted above, and the history issues which would favor only a new tee, if you had no obstacles, what distance would you set the hole if you were Fred?   I suspect it would be around 550-560 yards, to protect the middle of the field.  Haven't considered the lay up options, but at that length, seems like they would be the same as Crenshaw opined in Geoff S video yesterday, no?

Jeff-I think the 550-560 yardage would work to protect the field. Much more decision making inherent in that number based on today’s driver distances.

[Rick Lane]

I think Fred said two things:   One, we will always protect our golf course, and two, I think there is a bigger problem that the whole of the industry needs to address together......so not heading to Masters Ball, instead looking at equipment/ball overall......even bifurcation.   As I heard him speak and as I read the words in writing, it seems there is a lot between the lines of what he said.

[A.G._Crockett]

When Jones said that, shots were being hit into a green that was, I believe, common bermuda and therefore much more receptive to shots off longer clubs.  Also, if memory serves, old pictures of early ANGC show the creek bank as "shaggy" by comparison with the modern version.  And, of course, I doubt that the overseeded common bermuda fairways of 1940 ran anywhere near the speeds of ANGC today; most of us probably play greens that stimp slower than the 13th fairway.

So putting aside the issue of equipment for a moment, does the change in maintenance and grasses at Augusta make it impossible to return to the "momentous decision" that Jones prized without lengthening the hole to a point where there is no real option for the tee shot?

Just wondering...

[Carl Rogers]

Question: Many years back, don't know when, was the water level much lower, such that a recovery shot was possible?

(distance debate: sic...sic...Should Trump enter into the negotiations?)

[BCrosby]

And Duval just followed with (to me) an incredibly astute comment that the decision is really on the tee now...

Agreed. It's been clear for a while that Duval is very astute. Of the Three Amigos, he is the one I look forward most to hearing.


Bob

[JESII]

The best drives today seem to have the guys in the 200 - 215 neighborhood...

[Rick Lane]

So the comments above that said 550-560 would be about right....adding 40-50 yards....leaving them 250-265, which would be like 2-3 Irons, same as yesteryear and a momentous decision.