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Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
and The Masters too...

With the start of baseball season this graphic of Aaron Judge's swing showed up in the NY Times today:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/17/sports/baseball/aaron-judge-launch-angle.html (step by step picture analysis)



The Masters starts next week, and Dustin Johnson has this same type of "other worldly" swing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX5SQgivOas (very detailed step by step video analysis)



While a Masters Ball is needed, it is more complicated than one element. Fitness, finesse of the golf swing, and good old fashioned "better genes" is going to continue. Combined with agronomy advances, I really think our only hope is for The Masters to "figure it out". They are not growing any additional land in Augusta.

PS - Full story on the "Long Ball" in the NY Times - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/28/sports/baseball/mlb-home-runs.html?emc=edit_th_180329&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=540910100329
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 01:57:41 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Robert Kimball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike, I couldn't agree more.


I believe Augusta is the one place to do it (introduce a distance-restricted ball); I believe the membership has a lot of USGA and R&A guys so perhaps it might not be as soon as we would like. That said, the club and tournament has the autonomy to try the experiment without fear of backlash, either financial or publicity.


Good job on the Photoshop BTW.


Thanks, Rob

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Almost irrelevant, but the thing that grabbed my attention was your phrase “agronomy advances...”. I really don’t know why it bristles me, but I don’t see where we’re going in agronomy as “advances”. All these lower heights of cut and uniformity is more dependent on inputs than at any other time in the history of golf. I guess it just doesn’t align with my personal preferences or beliefs about what is good and neccessary for the game of golf.


Sorry for the rant.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0

Good job on the Photoshop BTW.



Just a screen shot actually from this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX5SQgivOas


The video does not explain why DJ was hitting inside a baseball stadium, but it does go step by step on his swing.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Masters needs a standard ball less than any other event.They are arguably the ONLY classic course left on Tour that has remained stable in in the way(club selection and strategy) that the elite play it.




They are the original "stadium golf" course. designed, redesigned and maintained around one event, and closed for nearly half a year to accomodate that. Change at Augusta is one of its traditions, and while I would prefer to have seen it played in its original, strategic simpler form, I have no problem with recent cahnge, as change has gone on since the First Masters in 1934.


While they may not be "making" any new land in Augusta, they certainly still sell land there and Augusta continues to gobble it up at its perimimeters, having bought an entire subdivision and relocated an entire major thoroughfare on its western border, as well as having bought an entire hole from Augusta Country club to the east.


So while we all romantically and whimsically hope Augusta will "figure it out"(re equipment), they really don't have to as they remain and continue to rise as the top major as other courses either are played at bastardized disfigured classics or worse at modern big scale monstrocities that normalize the 340 yard drive and the 5 1/2 hour round.


Augusta's stock goes up every year while the others at best remain stable.
The US Open at at iconic Shinnecock in the golf and wealth richest area of the world draws a ticket price of 1/25th of a golden ticket to Augusta.


As far as baseball and Aaron Judge,he is a giant of a man at 6-7 and 282 pounds, as is DJ in the golf world.
No one is suggesting that stadiums and courses change to accomodate their physical superheroes.
It's cool when our superheroes do things other players can't.


It's the fact that the rank and file are now distance superheroes compared to even 10 years ago, much less 25, and watching a Tour event consists of watching less and less drivers (despite the fact we're all fed the BS that we love the long ball)
Is it fun to watch a driving iron go where drivers used to go and are all that's needed-something that negates the very advantage we speak so highly of.


Baseball can easily control this via the ball(and the bat), and does.


Golf need to wake up-Augusta did long ago and solved it in a "sustainable" manner (for them)-where $$$ is abundant and land is cheap(comparatively).


That's a sustainable solution for them-and a totally unsustainable solution for the rest of the golf world.
Augusta would be foolish to change the status quo-it's the very thing that continues to elevate them as the rest of golf's governing bodies flounder.


I have to go now-I'm off to my paid staff manufacturing seminar/demo day where I'm told to bring my free/paid to play 6 month old equipment in and they will replace it with a driver and fairway wood that produce demonstratable (today on Trackman)several more MPH of ball speed.


and all this time I thought I was getting taller.....




Joe-very good points. "advances"...... ::)  which cost more and make the game less fun.


Ironically, the pros used to comment on how tough the tight lies were around Augusta's greens-which haven't changed much over the years.
They are now probably some of the least tight lies you see now around top tier clubs-and look comparatively inviting to pitch and chip from.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 09:28:03 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Guys,
Do you really think the pros are going to show up at The Masters and play a standard ball that goes totally different distances than they are used to?  NOT going to happen.  They would have to practice for weeks on end to get used to it.  That is no different then making them all play with the same clubs as well.  Either the ball changes for ALL events or it is not going to happen. 
Mark

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Guys,
Do you really think the pros are going to show up at The Masters and play a standard ball that goes totally different distances than they are used to?  NOT going to happen.  They would have to practice for weeks on end to get used to it.  That is no different then making them all play with the same clubs as well.  Either the ball changes for ALL events or it is not going to happen. 
Mark


Mark,
They play events at altitude all the time and adjust.
They just did 15% in Mexico and world #2 figured it out and world #1 figured it out the year before-in two days.
Wouldn't take weeks.
But as I state above, Augusta has no need to be the leader.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff,
I understand and you make a good point, but we are talking more than just distance by changing out to a standard golf ball.  There is feel and spin and compression and trajectory and every other facet of the ball that frankly these guys at that level can distinguish.  And again, why stop at just changing the ball?  Why not make them all use the same equipment? I just don't see it happening.
Mark

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

Guys,
Do you really think the pros are going to show up at The Masters and play a standard ball that goes totally different distances than they are used to?  NOT going to happen.  They would have to practice for weeks on end to get used to it.  That is no different then making them all play with the same clubs as well.  Either the ball changes for ALL events or it is not going to happen. 
Mark


Mark,


making the transition to a different ball would not be such a huge thing for the pros. I certainly cannot imagine anyone boycotting the event if they were required to play a 'Master's Ball'. It is the obvious and most straight forward way to approach the idea which gets the R&A and USGA off the hook whilst trialling a shorter ball. If it does the job then roll it out, if not then don't introduce it.


Jon

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
The notion that these guys would skip an event like the Masters because they were mandated to play a ball that goes demonstrably shorter is ridiculous. They would have access to the ball in advance, so easily adjust their yardages and equipment. They would also have access to the course in advance so could easily adjust their lines.

The question is, as Jeff Warne lays out precisely, why would August ever do this? For golf? What if they believe, as I do, that 0.01% of golfers should not dictate the playing conditions for the 99.99%? Augusta is adapting as they see fit, and within their means...if your course tries to follow their lead of expansion and maintenance, that's your fault, no?


Who here doesn't think Joe Hancock's course would be a blast to play EVERY FREAKING DAY?

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0

Do you really think the pros are going to show up at The Masters and play a standard ball that goes totally different distances than they are used to?


Mark,


I don't think it, I know it for $25 million reasons :)


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/heres-how-much-money-jordan-sp


"the 21-year-old Spieth will see his off-course income more than triple as a result of his Masters victory, agents and analysts tell GolfDigest.com. Call him the $25 million man -- at the very least."

The Masters needs a standard ball less than any other event.


Jeff,

I think that is exactly why they may do it, eventually. The Masters/Augusta has a huge ego, and I think they want to be the MOST influential golf event to a even larger degree.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim,
Of course they wouldn't skip The Masters (didn't mean to imply they would) but it could turn out to be a very silly and controversial event (and frankly I think it will never happen).  Make them all play with hickories.  They would still show up but The Masters wouldn't be the same. 


I stand by my opinion, if the ball is changed (and I support a shorter ball) it will be changed (distance limited) for all events not just for one.  And if it is done for one, it will purely be as a trial for all.
Mark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
The only plausible way it happens is if they declare players must use a new ball for The Open, US Open, and The Masters.  If they presented a united front and stuck to their guns, then the players would want the Tour to switch, too, so they wouldn't have to keep adjusting back and forth.  Just one event would not do it, and none of them wants to be the guinea pig.


If they really wanted to do it they'd include the Women's Open and the Amateur, too.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Masters can do almost whatever the hell they want.


No way in the world the players don't show up and bypass a chance to get the coveted green jacket and all that goes with it.  Changing the ball sure as hell wouldn't change that.


I agree with Jeff on the part of why the Current Green Jackets could give a damn... (unless someone could convince them of  wanting to watch the players struggle to shoot par with the current tees and a 20% distance restricted ball)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 01:57:00 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Let's bring back the long iron from the fairway to The Masters!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81j8dXzHQI

And just for the record, that was an awesome swing!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 02:02:36 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,


Don't be absurd.  Everyone wants to watch Bubba hit a high cut over the trees and then 9 iron approach!!  ;D


P.S.  They should just make 13 a par 4 already....no fuss over new tees, and boy that would mess with the players heads!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 01:58:27 PM by Kalen Braley »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
They would play the hole more conservatively...shrinking the range of scores. Not ideal...




Long irons from the top guys?  2, 4, 8, 15?

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0

Long irons from the top guys?  2, 4, 8, 15?


Jack hit 5 iron into 18 in '86 and left it short!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYZMAHkwRMg
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0

Long irons from the top guys?  2, 4, 8, 15?


Jack hit 5 iron into 18 in '86 and left it short!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYZMAHkwRMg


And Norman flared 4-iron when he could have won or tied it...there's the distance effect in a nutshell...a shot which leaves a mid-iron is not as demanding as one requiring a short iron.



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0


And Norman flared 4-iron when he could have won or tied it...there's the distance effect in a nutshell...a shot which leaves a mid-iron is not as demanding as one requiring a short iron.


Norman was one of the greatest drivers of the ball. Nicklaus was one of the greatest long iron players. They overlapped a few years but I don't understand what you are saying.


It's the internet, so there may be nuances to your statement. Can you explain?
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
I had a longer post that I redacted.... my meaning is that an uncontrolled ball has the effect (amplified when you consider the hole lengthening from 405 in 1986 to 455 today) of causing first class players to have less-demanding clubs to hit into greens...which takes more danger out of the sequence... less pressure on the result...the hole less of a final gauntlet.


If Nicklaus or Norman are permitted to hit 7/8/9-irons (as likely would be/is the case today) into the back pin as opposed to 4/5 irons, the results of those shots stand to be closer to the hole.


Moreover, they likely could have (as players do today) been able to hit 3w to achieve that shorter club too.


Hope that clarifies...


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Looking at the reasons for the ball going farther, the increase in athleticism of the players is often mentioned.  I can't verify this, and I can't remember where exactly I read it, but I saw that the average shoe size of PGA Tour players has gone from 9 1/2 to 11 1/2 over the past few decades.  The average golfer certainly looks taller and bigger and stronger than in prior years.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Looking at the reasons for the ball going farther, the increase in athleticism of the players is often mentioned.  I can't verify this, and I can't remember where exactly I read it, but I saw that the average shoe size of PGA Tour players has gone from 9 1/2 to 11 1/2 over the past few decades.  The average golfer certainly looks taller and bigger and stronger than in prior years.
Jim sorry but I did get a chuckle on the shoe size data point, we are indeed digging deep.  Basically means guys are taller with longer limbs to produce more clubheqd speed.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
I had a longer post that I redacted.... my meaning is that an uncontrolled ball has the effect (amplified when you consider the hole lengthening from 405 in 1986 to 455 today) of causing first class players to have less-demanding clubs to hit into greens...which takes more danger out of the sequence... less pressure on the result...the hole less of a final gauntlet.


If Nicklaus or Norman are permitted to hit 7/8/9-irons (as likely would be/is the case today) into the back pin as opposed to 4/5 irons, the results of those shots stand to be closer to the hole.


Moreover, they likely could have (as players do today) been able to hit 3w to achieve that shorter club too.


Hope that clarifies...


cheers   vk


It’s still the same pressure, and the shot still needs to be executed.  On certain days I hit my 5 waayyy better than my 9.  Your logic holds no weight.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0

I had a longer post that I redacted.... my meaning is that an uncontrolled ball has the effect (amplified when you consider the hole lengthening from 405 in 1986 to 455 today) of causing first class players to have less-demanding clubs to hit into greens...which takes more danger out of the sequence... less pressure on the result...the hole less of a final gauntlet.


If Nicklaus or Norman are permitted to hit 7/8/9-irons (as likely would be/is the case today) into the back pin as opposed to 4/5 irons, the results of those shots stand to be closer to the hole.


Moreover, they likely could have (as players do today) been able to hit 3w to achieve that shorter club too.


Hope that clarifies...


cheers   vk


It’s still the same pressure, and the shot still needs to be executed.  On certain days I hit my 5 waayyy better than my 9.  Your logic holds no weight.


That maybe so for you Greg but even on a bad day the VAST majority of scratch players and better will find hitting it close with a 9 iron much simpler than with a 5 iron. That you don't has more to do with your game than the game of golf I would suggest. ;)

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