News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« on: March 22, 2018, 06:29:51 PM »
I've got several, but two that come first to mind...


15 at Fishers...16 at Yale...both listed as par 5s


For Fishers 15th, I'd like to put a wider-than usual "Spectacles" pair of bunkers benched into the last swell of second shot land before you see the green (about 80 - 90 yards out)...


For 16 Yale (always a subject of debate from its first design presentation), I'd make the green 8-10 yards longer and a 6-7 feet thinner with a subtle increase of mounding near the newly expanded entrance...I'd get rid of (or turn into a pot) the newer front right greenside bunker in so doing.


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2018, 06:53:02 PM »
Yes, #7 at Royal Dornoch, but it is already in the process of being "amended." ;)

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 07:24:59 PM »
18 at Bethpage Black. Add 35 yards in length to the hole and remove the nest of bunkers in the right side drive zone. Additionally the greenside bunker scheme is too busy. Pull out the one on the right side closest to the fairway and allow more short shots to roll back down the hill.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 07:37:06 PM by Tim Martin »

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2018, 07:45:24 PM »
18 at Bethpage Black. Add 35 yards in length to the hole and remove the nest of bunkers in the right side drive zone. Additionally the greenside bunker scheme is too busy. Pull out the one on the right side closest to the fairway and allow more short shots to roll back down the hill.


I like that one TM...I'm not sure about adding length (maybe championship tees) but that hole is a flat note on a stimulating course.


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 07:55:12 PM »
To name but a few, VK. TOC 9, ANGC 10, CPC 1 & 18.
But I’m just an opinion with an asshole. Whoops, that’s an.. well, you get the idea.


F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 07:56:12 PM »
I’d change every hole on Black if we were talking about mowing lines.


But other than that, I’d change #13. I’d get rid of the new-ish bunker on the left side of the tee shot landing zone and push the fairway out in that direction like it used to be. The further left you go off that tee, playing away from the huge tree on the right, the tougher your second shot becomes as you bring the left bunker and swale in the second shot landing zone more into play.


That’s how the hole was designed to play. It’s one of the tougher par 5 layups you’ll find. Making the tee shot target Golf is just silly.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 08:41:08 PM »
I’d change every hole on Black if we were talking about mowing lines.


Same with Olympic Club. That's a maintenance issue.


Regarding the topics question, it gets to the point which I'll start a new thread on which is the mistakes made by classic architects.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 09:40:57 PM »
To name but a few, VK. TOC 9

F.


Great minds... 8)


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 PM »
I’d change every hole on Black if we were talking about mowing lines.



While it might be a maintenance issue, I'm still interested in the detail of what you're getting at, specifically on...


2, 5, 9, 12, 15... ?
To name but a few, VK. TOC 9

F.
Great minds... 8)
Ciao

Also, I see where #9 TOC had its own thread of contention, as I never played but studied from afar and from those who have...doesn't that hole (as many of the holes) take on a different consideration as the winds get up?  Isn't effective width changed with regards to Boase's and End Hole? If so, isn't it the green itself the thing that is drawing ire? What would you do to it?



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 10:39:48 PM »
To name but a few, VK. TOC 9, ANGC 10, CPC 1 & 18.
But I’m just an opinion with an asshole. Whoops, that’s an.. well, you get the idea.

F.


What are your thoughts regarding ANGC 10?... Sven's excellent photo archive on the 1st page shows some interesting bunker/green  presentations (even post 1937 move)...is one of those what you're thinking on this one?


cheers   vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2018, 01:34:55 AM »
7 at ANGC
Someone made a suggestion that I think would be terrific for this hole. Make the pros play from the Members tees and build a new Members tee, or move everyone up even more than that. Yes, the green and the hole are nothing like the original; however, the new green is extremely treacherous. There are so many spots that could be a big no-no. Make the hole shorter like it used to be. The fact that #3 is the only short par 4 now is a bit of a shame. Let there be some variety. Tuck the holes as much or even more than they are now. Watch the birdies and bogeys flourish on this new short 4.


9 on The Old Course
Call me nuts. Call me crazy, but one small change would completely change the dynamic of the hole. Put a pot bunker in the middle of the green. Think about it. I won't explain the pros. You all can put the pieces together. The only 2 cons I can come up with is that 1) I'm screwing up The Old Course, but it being tweaked with has already opened up that Pandora's box, and 2) if you are on the wrong side of the bunker, you'd have to chip over it. If someone took a divot, that would suck for the grounds crew.. but honestly, the hole is short and the green is large. If you are on the wrong side of that bunker, it is all your fault.


17 at Pebble Beach
The remodel helped, but I'd return it to its former size, or redesign it altogether. It feels like something way better could be done with that greensite out on the point.


13 at Bandon Dunes
Fill the pond in! Put a pot bunker or two in its place. Then, place some spectacle bunkers in a spot to make players think but still hit the green in two with a well-struck and aimed second.


14 at Bandon Trails
This change would end up changing two holes.... I guess I'm breaking the rules for this one. Put the green in a location near 15 tees. Keep the right fairway bunkers where they are to act as cross bunkers, and tear out the trees behind them. Slide 15 tees over to where necessary. If a shorter hole is still wanted in this part of the routing, making 15 shorter with the new tees wouldn't hurt. It might devalue the cross bunker on 15 a little, but the new 14 utilizes a cross bunker feature now to help replace it.


12 at Pacific Dunes
Slide all the tees forward 2 boxes. Make it a longish par 4. The greensite and the shot into it are so cool I want everyone to be thinking they need to hit it on in 2 and giving everyone with a decent drive a chance to slide it in there in 2. The moving of the tees doesn't really change the shot value of the tee shot, IMO. Also, moves the back tees further from 5, which always felt a little too close to me even though they probably aren't.


10 at Old Mac
I'd lower the green. For the length of the hole, the smallish size of that part of the green and how hard the hole plays with the winter wind making the bottle bunkers one of the most challenging features on the course, that raised green is a bit much, IMO. If dropping the green ruins the double green, so be it. I think forcing the double green might have caused part of the problem.


If you can convince me to not change 10, then I'd change 12 at Old Mac. I am not sure the redan is pulled off as well as it could have.


7 at Pasatiempo
Rip out the trees on both sides of the fairway.


13 at Riviera
Rip out the trees all down the left and shift the fairway so its up against the barranca. Build a bunker that looks very natural in the barranca similar to the two newer ones on 8. They felt a little out of place, but a bunker like them on another hole would help establish the concept more. Cut the barranca in towards the front portion of the green and change the mowing patterns a bit so its a little more of an angled green guarded by the barranca. Fairway height turf beyond the bunker up near the green for a bail-out.


5 at Whistling Straits
Fix the drive. Gotta get rid of that 90 degree turn.


12 at North Berwick
Remove the 4 fairway bunkers on the left and add one on the right side about 20 yards past the current one. You want to take on the two fairway bunkers to have a good angle past the two bunkers on the left of the green.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 01:46:03 AM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2018, 02:47:38 AM »
Here’s the rub:


I can find something that can be “improved” on every single course I’ve played.


But there are quite a few courses that I believe should remain more or less untouched architecturally, weaknesses and all. TOC is one.


Portmarnock would have been another where the club have just finished creating a huge, parkland feeling pond to create fill for unnecessary mounding between fairways.


So is there a hole on a great course I would change. Yes. I’d restore a couple of Portmarnock holes to 2017.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2018, 07:16:55 AM »
To name but a few, VK. TOC 9, ANGC 10, CPC 1 & 18.
But I’m just an opinion with an asshole. Whoops, that’s an.. well, you get the idea.

F.


What are your thoughts regarding ANGC 10?... Sven's excellent photo archive on the 1st page shows some interesting bunker/green  presentations (even post 1937 move)...is one of those what you're thinking on this one?


cheers   vk


I am interested in Marty’s thoughts on ANGC 10 as well as I’ve always really liked the hole and think it flows well with the holes both before and after.

Clyde Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2018, 07:59:01 AM »
Here’s the rub:


I can find something that can be “improved” on every single course I’ve played.


But there are quite a few courses that I believe should remain more or less untouched architecturally, weaknesses and all. TOC is one.


Portmarnock would have been another where the club have just finished creating a huge, parkland feeling pond to create fill for unnecessary mounding between fairways.


So is there a hole on a great course I would change. Yes. I’d restore a couple of Portmarnock holes to 2017.


Who's driving those changes Ally? Is it the consulting architect, or the club?


Cheers

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2018, 08:01:55 AM »
Here’s the rub:


I can find something that can be “improved” on every single course I’ve played.


But there are quite a few courses that I believe should remain more or less untouched architecturally, weaknesses and all. TOC is one.


Portmarnock would have been another where the club have just finished creating a huge, parkland feeling pond to create fill for unnecessary mounding between fairways.


So is there a hole on a great course I would change. Yes. I’d restore a couple of Portmarnock holes to 2017.


Who's driving those changes Ally? Is it the consulting architect, or the club?


Cheers


The architect, Clyde.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2018, 08:04:43 AM »
To name but a few, VK. TOC 9, ANGC 10, CPC 1 & 18.
But I’m just an opinion with an asshole. Whoops, that’s an.. well, you get the idea.

F.


What are your thoughts regarding ANGC 10?... Sven's excellent photo archive on the 1st page shows some interesting bunker/green  presentations (even post 1937 move)...is one of those what you're thinking on this one?


cheers   vk


I am interested in Marty’s thoughts on ANGC 10 as well as I’ve always really liked the hole and think it flows well with the holes both before and after.


Gents,
I just think it’s such a shame that one of The Good Doctor’s most strategic, artistic bunkers has been reduced to mere eye candy with the changes to 10. It clearly plays no part in player’s thoughts anymore and now just looks like a museum piece to me.
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2018, 08:28:31 AM »
Lahinch 18--I am not smart enough to have a specific suggestion, but it is only an Ok finish to an otherwise mesmerizing course.


Pine Needles 17--Get rid of the bunker on the inside corner.  The hole is plenty challenging without it.


I am surprised that no one has mentioned Cypress Point 18.  I would not change it, but I think there are plenty of GCAers who think it should be changed.


Ira

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2018, 08:48:20 AM »
Lahinch 18--I am not smart enough to have a specific suggestion, but it is only an Ok finish to an otherwise mesmerizing course.


Pine Needles 17--Get rid of the bunker on the inside corner.  The hole is plenty challenging without it.


I am surprised that no one has mentioned Cypress Point 18.  I would not change it, but I think there are plenty of GCAers who think it should be changed.


Ira


Ahem... ;D
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2018, 10:18:53 AM »
Yes, #7 at Royal Dornoch, but it is already in the process of being "amended." ;)

David

Do you agree with the changes that they are making or just the idea that the hole should be amended ?

Niall

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2018, 01:22:54 PM »
I’d change every hole on Black if we were talking about mowing lines.



While it might be a maintenance issue, I'm still interested in the detail of what you're getting at, specifically on...


2, 5, 9, 12, 15... ?


There probably are few courses as good as Bethpage that suffer so adversely from overly-narrowed fairways and thick rough, robbing much of the original strategic intention. It's terrific challenge comes from the land movement, bunkering and length. It doesn't need more defense, unless it's being set up purely for modern major championships — which it is, sadly.


Of the holes you mentioned, I'd say only #9 is set up well, assuming we ignore the greenside bunkers being buried in rough. #2 is the only relative short par 4, so even though the fairway is needlessly narrowed, I could give that a pass for now.


But #5 is egregious. Like most holes on the course, the only option off the tee is long and straight over the bunker with no truly safe lay-up option. There is an ocean of unnecessary rough on the left side of the fairway that should be short grass, tempting players to hit out in that direction and leave themselves with a much tougher approach that could be longer, blinder, blocked out by trees, with more carry required and with a harsher angle for bailing out up by the green. 


It's the same issue that's found on #15. Oceans of open rough surrounding U.S. Open-narrow fairways. Both holes are already the hardest on the course, requiring your longest, straightest drive of the day, and then both have the two uphill, all carry, long approaches that help make the course famous. You could remove all the rough on #15 and it wouldn't play that much easier. Without a perfect long drive, that second shot is one of the hardest around even from short grass. Even worse, the slight left dog leg effectively narrows the landing zone even more off the tee.


On #15, the right side fairway should be well-expanded. Players should be tempted to play safe out in that direction, setting up a similar situation as #5. It leads to a longer approach from a worse angle with more carry and less bailout by the green. My preferred miss on #15 is the left rough, cutting the corner a bit and having a strip of un-bunkered grass directly between me and the green to bailout short on.


#12 is similar again. The fairway is blind, with a slight left dogleg, and the safe play appears to be out to the right where you can see some landing area and a lot of open space. But the fairway is so narrow that most shots in that direction roll through into the rough, compounding what is already a longer second shot and worsening angle to the green. Players should be tempted to play far out right, especially if they aren't confident clearing the fairway cross bunker. As it is, thanks to the uber-slim margin of error like on #15, the only drive that works is perfect and straight or perfect with a slight draw. 


And don't even get me started on all the rough down the right on #6, removing probably the best strategic decision on the course: playing the straight hero shot for a clear look at the green, or playing out safely right and having a blind second.


It's frustrating because you could remove all the rough on Black and have one of the most fun courses you ever played. The only thing the current set up has going for it is that you get to see how many times in a round you can pull off the exact perfect drive you envisioned in your mind, because anything less is usually in extremely boring rough trouble. But that's the point. The tourists want to get their butt kicked just like the pros did in '02 and '09. Meanwhile, us regulars only get part of what is otherwise a truly special course.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2018, 01:53:36 PM »
"Do you agree with the changes that they are making or just the idea that the hole should be amended ?"

Niall -

I agree with the changes being made.

DT

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2018, 01:57:32 PM »
To name but a few, VK. TOC 9, ANGC 10, CPC 1 & 18.
But I’m just an opinion with an asshole. Whoops, that’s an.. well, you get the idea.

F.


What are your thoughts regarding ANGC 10?... Sven's excellent photo archive on the 1st page shows some interesting bunker/green  presentations (even post 1937 move)...is one of those what you're thinking on this one?


cheers   vk

I am interested in Marty’s thoughts on ANGC 10 as well as I’ve always really liked the hole and think it flows well with the holes both before and after.


Just need to take out that useless bunker...

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2018, 02:01:08 PM »

"Do you agree with the changes that they are making or just the idea that the hole should be amended ?"

Niall -

I agree with the changes being made.

DT


David,


why. What was wrong with how the old hole fit into the round and what benefits do you perceive the new version will bring from a golfing perspective? I can see the 8th being improved by the changes but this could have been done without altering the 7th.


Jon

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2018, 02:05:54 PM »
Niall & Jon -

Changes to the 7th at Dornoch have been discussed extensively on a separate thread. I don't see much point in rehashing what has already been written.

Just call me a sucker for "eye candy." ;)

DT
 

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there a hole on a renowned course you would amend?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2018, 03:17:53 PM »
This thread will prove that this crowd would screw up a one car funeral.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....