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jeffwarne

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On Topic-Tacking on old thread so as not to clutter Board


Join us live with your questions tomorrow 866-469-0026 8 am

« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 11:26:38 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joe Bausch

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Re: Mike Clayton on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 08:28:03 PM »
I’ll be listening.  I bet it will be a good show.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

jeffwarne

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Re: Mike Clayton on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2018, 08:59:18 PM »
I’ll be listening.  I bet it will be a good show.


866-469-0026
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Mike Clayton on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 10:21:23 AM »
Did Jeff mention Freddie? Was there any interesting content that we miss on GCA? How about Tiger being clocked at a 129 mph swing speed yesterday.

jeffwarne

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Re: Mike Clayton on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2018, 10:34:16 AM »
Did Jeff mention Freddie? Was there any interesting content that we miss on GCA? How about Tiger being clocked at a 129 mph swing speed yesterday.


Use that $100 and buy a subscription....





"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Mike Clayton on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2018, 10:56:46 AM »
I really do enjoy your show in the car while driving to golf. I wish it had been warmer this morning. The only thing this day is good for is being late for church.

jeffwarne

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Re: Mike Clayton on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2018, 11:11:35 AM »
I really do enjoy your show in the car while driving to golf. I wish it had been warmer this morning. The only thing this day is good for is being late for church.


"Mike was fantastic by the way.
very interesting career as player and architect.
Could do a 3 hour show with him...


I did mention Tiger's 129 speed today...
as the reason he excels on icky modern one dimensional PGA tour golf courses.
he can use his speed to avoid driver-the tighter the better

Ironically he now has a better chance at Carnoustie than Augusta :)
 but stupid me(in December) picked him to win the PGA at Bellerive (which seems just boring enough for  McIlroy win-please let it rain and it's a lock)
I also picked Tiger to win the Fedex Cup."
...............................................





« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 08:40:31 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Mike Clayton on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2018, 11:41:55 AM »
I got on the trackman yesterday and couldn't get my swing speed over one third my body weight. Exercise starting tomorrow.

jeffwarne

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Re: Mike Clayton on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2018, 12:05:02 PM »
I got on the trackman yesterday and couldn't get my swing speed over one third my body weight. Exercise starting tomorrow.


alternatively, gain 15 more pounds.
an additional 5 mph will deliver more additional ballspeed than Callaway is promising this year
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

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On topic-Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2018, 11:04:58 PM »
Tom Doak guest appearance  on Golf School tomorrow.
8 am Eastern August 5th Sirius 208 XM 92
Call in and join the conversation 866-469-0026


Tacking onto old thread so as not to clutter the Discussion Board
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2018, 11:36:56 PM »
I would really have enjoyed listening to you two, Jeff, but sadly no access to Sirius XM.

A question -- though only if you feel like putting Tom 'on the spot'.  He's such an articulate guy that only a one-word, yes or no, answer would be a challenge for him. So, two 'yes or no' questions-answers:

Are you a better architect today than you were 5 years ago?

Will you be a better architect 5 years from now than you are today?

In any event, all the best for a great chat
Peter

« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 11:45:03 PM by Peter Pallotta »

jeffwarne

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Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2018, 11:49:22 PM »



A question -- though only if you feel like putting Tom 'on the spot'.  He's such an articulate guy that only a one-word, yes or no, answer would be a challenge for him. So, two 'yes or no' questions-answers:





Thanks Peter,
Questions that lead to "one word answers" or guests that provide them....
keep me developing interesting on the fly follow up questions, to say nothing of enjoying my coffee and breakfast...and often from observing/consulting on a busy Sat/Sun first tee operation.....


so I prefer to avoid both :) :o ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2018, 12:02:31 AM »
 :D  Ha! Good one.
Okay, so here's a follow-up (if he answers 'yes') that should keep him talking so long and in such interesting detail that you can have a plate of eggs benedict and coffee and still have time for a massage:

"Ah ha! So if you're a better architect now, it means that your most recent courses are the best ones you've ever built, right?"

Hope you don't mind the suggestions, Jeff -- just trying to help you achieve a healthy work-life balance... :)


Tom_Doak

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Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2018, 09:32:23 AM »
I would really have enjoyed listening to you two, Jeff, but sadly no access to Sirius XM.

A question -- though only if you feel like putting Tom 'on the spot'.  He's such an articulate guy that only a one-word, yes or no, answer would be a challenge for him. So, two 'yes or no' questions-answers:

Are you a better architect today than you were 5 years ago?

Will you be a better architect 5 years from now than you are today?

In any event, all the best for a great chat
Peter


Since Jeff did not get to your two questions, I'll answer here:


1.  No.


2.  Probably not.


Backup explanation:


Occasionally I go back and look at The Anatomy of a Golf Course - written in 1992, when I'd built three golf courses, and before Ron Whitten had ever coined the term "minimalism" - and I think, well, there isn't any point in updating that, I have not changed my thoughts very much.


At that point, I was still getting better at the execution of my ideas, and still trying to find more talented help to build my courses.  That's why I chuckle when people declare they could design a great course on their own, on their first attempt.  They would benefit in some respects from not being constrained by their past or their future, but we judge golf courses [and golfers] not on potential but on execution and being good at that requires plenty of practice.  That's why I always insist that people shouldn't try to separate "design" from the product of "courses" ... anyone can have great ideas, but they aren't really great if you can't apply them in practice. 


[My parents were both born and raised in the "Show Me" state.]


Nowadays, I have gotten pretty good at the execution part, too, and I have a surplus of talented help.  So, I don't know exactly how I'm going to get "better".  I keep traveling to remind myself of good ideas I haven't used for a while, and maybe I'll decide to zig and try something a bit different on my next course, but it's probably not going to be something I haven't ever thought of before.  Maybe one of my associates or young people will contribute something I would never have thought to, and I'll get credit for being "better".  Maybe there will be some feature that was already on the ground, but I'll get credit for that.


This is NOT to say that everything I build from here out will be of equal quality, because, again, it's all down to execution.  So I've still got to do the work, access my creativity, find inspiring projects, and convince clients to let me run with my ideas.  And then I've got to get back out there, choose wisely when to listen to my associates' ideas and when to overrule them, and make sure everybody is happy so they can stay focused on executing their own work.  [Or, as they say in Austin, "keep it weird".] 


Those parts of the puzzle are NEVER the same from one job to the next, and you wouldn't really want them to be ... I'd rather have the highs and the lows, than just consistency.  Nobody is consistent and truly awesome at the same time.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2018, 12:39:35 PM »
Thanks, Tom -- that's a terrific post. I hope young industry people/architects get a chance to read it -- there is much important insight & wisdom there, especially for those just starting out and trying to 'prove themselves' (very often to *themselves* as much as to others).
P

George Pazin

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Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2018, 01:10:17 PM »
At that point, I was still getting better at the execution of my ideas, and still trying to find more talented help to build my courses.  That's why I chuckle when people declare they could design a great course on their own, on their first attempt.  They would benefit in some respects from not being constrained by their past or their future, but we judge golf courses [and golfers] not on potential but on execution and being good at that requires plenty of practice.


So why do you think it seems some of the best designs are either one-offs or very early in an architect's career?


Your words ring true to me, but they seem a bit at odds with what's in the ground, so to speak.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2018, 03:25:31 PM »

So why do you think it seems some of the best designs are either one-offs or very early in an architect's career?

Your words ring true to me, but they seem a bit at odds with what's in the ground, so to speak.


George:


Because a lot of those examples you're thinking of are partly a myth.


For example, Pine Valley is a lot easier to understand if you consider the involvement of Colt and Alison and Tillinghast and George Thomas, and not just George Crump.


Or Oakmont, which just like Royal Melbourne, had a great superintendent who was very involved in its construction and developing the landscape of the course.


In both cases, it was very important that Crump and Fownes had the final say, and they did not have a lot of industry vets telling them a bunch of things they shouldn't do.  They were free to think great things.  But they had a ton of help from there, which is the execution part I'm talking about.




George Pazin

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Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2018, 03:36:52 PM »
Interesting points. Those are certainly two of the examples I was thinking of, as I'm sure you know.


I often think of things in terms of my t shirt printing biz, which is small but still surviving. I'm an infinitely better printer than I was 10 or 20 years ago - I've just seen more and learned more - but I'm not sure I'm any more creative than I was when I started things almost 25 years ago.


A quick perusal of the accomplishments of great scientists will show their greatest work is frequently at the onset of their career - at least, that's broadly true for theoretical scientists. It may be less true for experimental scientists or engineers, I don't know much about that.


Similarly, I've read a lot of fiction written by writers whose first work is their best, sometimes by far. They may write "better" in later works, but the ideas are more fresh and vibrant in their first work, or earlier works.


Interesting stuff. Sad I missed your piece with Jeff, big fans of both of you, but I'll figure out a way to hear it. That's the true lesson of most of us who survived in anything: find a way.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Peter Pallotta

Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2018, 04:08:55 PM »
George -
you made me think: in your work and mine and Tom's etc, we can get more technically sound over the years and more practically proficient, and we can refine our skills and learn to anticipate likely problems and avoid common mistakes -- and that's all good: it's part of what makes a professional.
But the creative spark, and the desire to grow and to aspire to excellence, and the beginner's mind and an open spirit and a free and lively imagination -- ah, keeping *that* is the hard part.
I continue to marvel at and admire how Tom is able to walk that knife edge -- ie how he's managed to combine excellence and the highest achievements in the *craft* with such marked and growing success in the *business* of gca.
You think maybe he knows something that I don't?  :)
P
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 04:16:19 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2018, 04:45:22 PM »
I think it'd be interesting to look at the top 100 world list and figure out when the corresponding architect, as best we know, did it at what point in their career. (Limit to 3 category ranks beginning, middle, end for simplicity)


Hmmmm.....which list to use? Perhaps this will be doomed before it starts!  ;D

Tom_Doak

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Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2018, 05:19:40 PM »
I think it'd be interesting to look at the top 100 world list and figure out when the corresponding architect, as best we know, did it at what point in their career. (Limit to 3 category ranks beginning, middle, end for simplicity)


Hmmmm.....which list to use? Perhaps this will be doomed before it starts!  ;D


You can do that exercise if you want, but I don't think it will prove anything, other than what are the sacred cows.


SO MUCH of the rankings are based on reputation and hype and sacred cows, now.  Bill Coore's newer courses and mine get an unbelievable amount of hype, so we are "getting better" by that definition.  Why didn't Hugh Wilson get better?   ;)


George Thomas's three L.A. designs were all toward the end of his career.  Was Royal Melbourne the middle of MacKenzie's career or the beginning of Alex Russell's?  Is Augusta better than Alwoodley? 


I think I could spin it to any result you want, but most raters know which myths they are supposed to uphold.




As to Peter's point, High Pointe might have been one of my very best and most creative courses.  But I didn't have much help in building it.  I didn't know how to build pretty bunkers yet.  And most important of all, the family that hired me did not know how to run a golf course or hire a superintendent like Claude Crockford or Ken Nice to nurture it, or even know what to work on and what to leave alone ... so it was ultimately going to fail, no matter how creative it was.


And, per the above, many golfers [and critics, and clients] are not that comfortable with creativity when you show it to them.  So you have to learn how to dress it up for them in a more acceptable form.

jeffwarne

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Re: Tom Doak on "Golf School" tomorrow Aug 5th 8am Sirius XM
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2018, 08:41:24 PM »
Bumping this thread to highlight this Sunday's 8 am eastern show with Scott Parel who I went to High School with.
A really good story about a good guy-worth a listen as he's now 2nd behind Bernhard Langer on the Charles Schwab points list having won last week's playoff event with the Tour Championship left to play next weekend.

Clocks go back this weekend....

It was prerecorded Thursday as I'm in Portsmouth England.

Rereading the thread I made some pretty good predictions above about Tiger in December and March.... ;) 


« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 08:47:24 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey


George Myers

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Re: Scott Parel on Golf School this Sunday 8 am-2nd in Schwab Cup currently
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2018, 05:02:52 PM »
I saw that piece over lunch today and came away impressed with Scott.


He said whenever he'd get to the point of throwing in the towel on the golf career, he'd win another tournament.


The show mentions he and wife performing in the high school production of West Side Story.



Jeff, did you see it?

jeffwarne

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8 AM  Sunday morning  208 Sirius 92 XM

Live show-call in with questions for our "most beloved"
866-469-0026


or post here
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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