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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #450 on: June 25, 2019, 02:42:25 PM »
We are not trying to make the game "fair" or "even" for everybody here.  We are just trying to restore some of the challenge for elite players, without changing every course in the world on their behalf.


I was looking for something else while perusing this thread and came across these comments from TD.  I don't know who the "we" is, but the two sentences capture my thoughts on the distance issue very precisely.


Jeff Warnne (sp) comments on a current thread that the modern ball and equipment enables seniors to hit the ball as far or farther than they ever have.  I suspect that this is true for a relative few.  It certainly isn't my experience and that of just about every golfer I know over 50 years old.  It wasn't true of Bob Huntley who finally quit playing in his 70s because, as he said, he couldn't hit it 200 yards with a good roll despite expert lessons and access to the best equipment.


And as I watched Bob over the years, whatever benefit we enjoy from the ProV1 and space-age equipment technology, it diminishes rapidly as we age.  IMO, age has a much larger negative impact on clubhead speed than anything a Callaway engineer can design to overcome it.


So, bifurcation on a limited basis- the pro tours and highest level amateur events- is fine with me.  But please, no roll backs for the old and infirm!




 


 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #451 on: June 25, 2019, 03:01:03 PM »
IMO, age has a much larger negative impact on clubhead speed than anything a Callaway engineer can design to overcome it.
So, bifurcation on a limited basis- the pro tours and highest level amateur events- is fine with me.  But please, no roll backs for the old and infirm!


I've said before that I'd favour a positive bifricated ball, ie one that goes further than the current regulations/ limitations.
Such a ball to be clearly differentiated by markings and be aimed at non-competition players who for whatever reason, ie young or old age, gender, infirmity etc don't want for a variety of reasons to play from exceptionally forward tees and as such would like the ball that goes further because, amongst other things, they want to continue having fun playing golf.
We need to keep such people involved in the game ... not just from a social involvement perspective but also because they bring ca$h into the game.
atb

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #452 on: June 25, 2019, 04:59:45 PM »

I fail to see why equipment needs to be "rolled back".  I also fail to see why courses need to be lengthened.  All to "protect par"?  Why?


Let the pros score whatever they can.  The score is just a number.  72, 62 52 - why does it matter?  If the winner shoots 49, he's still the winner because he had the lowest score.  Players still need the skills to get the ball in the hole.


Little in the game of a tour pro is relevant to my experience with golf. Equipment rollback isn't going to change that.   On the other hand, improved equipment may provide me with a better playing experience.


A great course is still a great course, even if a tour pro scores 49 on it.   I'll just play and enjoy it.  If a great old course is degraded in an attempt to add length to "protect par", shame on the members.


If equipment improvements end up negatively impacting the fan base and audience for tour golf and it's advertisers, I'm sure that they will address that.


Does it really matter what a tour pro scores?  Sure, the game has changed since they days of hickory and featheries.  Is going back there the answer?

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #453 on: June 25, 2019, 06:18:35 PM »

I fail to see why equipment needs to be "rolled back".  I also fail to see why courses need to be lengthened.  All to "protect par"?  Why?


It’s not about “protecting par” for anyone other than the USGA, it’s about maintaining the integrity of the architecture.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #454 on: June 25, 2019, 06:31:46 PM »

I fail to see why equipment needs to be "rolled back".  I also fail to see why courses need to be lengthened.  All to "protect par"?  Why?

It’s not about “protecting par” for anyone other than the USGA, it’s about maintaining the integrity of the architecture.

Scott

This is where the argument gets skewed imo.  Protecting the integrity of the architecture for whom?  This argument too often gets framed by the professional/elite game.  I will admit I have seen some holes which were compromised by modern length for the handicap player.  I would, however, argue just as many holes are better due to modern equipment.  Though I have never been one to believe that playing those old 6300-6700 yard courses at a modern equivalent sounds like much fun or holds much integrity for that matter. I can understand if folks are worried about the few handfuls of great classic courses which are continuously (or so it seems anyway) tweeked for the pleasure of pros.  I am not convinced added rules about equipment applied to all is the  best answer for coping with the obsession of "hosting pros". 

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 07:12:12 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #455 on: June 25, 2019, 07:07:18 PM »
I've changed my mind completely on this. I've become a libertarian. Let Merion (and its members) and Augusta and Shinnecock and every private club itching to host a USGA event ruin whatever course they want in which ever way they wish in the context of any hierarchy of values or craven commercial gain they care to honour, so that pros and top amateurs interface with the architecture in the best way they can and shoot as high or low a number as the USGA or the clubs have determined, however arbitrary the reasons, is proper & ideal, all with the major equipment manufacturers continuing to use space age materials and computer technologies to create ever bigger and uglier and further flying tools of the trade which they can roll out every three months at any exorbitant price point the inflated greed of their shareholders demands --- and then leave the 99.99% of the rest of us the hell alone to play golf exactly as we always have on the 99.99% of the world's remaining golf courses. Architects and golf architecture will be just fine.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 07:12:40 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #456 on: June 25, 2019, 07:49:40 PM »
It is interesting there has been a renaissance of architecture emerge during the height of the equipment debate. Yes, there have been casualties and yes courses are becoming longer even if that is a minor push of the renaissance. Perhaps the biggest issue to arise from this "crisis" is the normality of mega tees. This is a trend which not only encourages cart golf, but nearly guarantees stupidly long back tees will be built.


For sure I have mixed feelings about modern equipment. I am still hopeful sane minds will prevail and there will be a natural roll back of yardage and tees because it makes sense based on who plays the game and who are the most likely recruits to the game. Nothing could be better for golf right now than an influx of women golfers, developers and architects.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #457 on: June 25, 2019, 10:23:13 PM »
The last two Renaissances of architecture also came at the heights of an equipment debate.  They are tghe cause for architects to start thinking about architecture again, instead of just cashing checks.


All of those who worry about a rollback fail to have learned the lesson of the surge:  only the guys with high swing speeds gained much at all from modern equipment, so they shouldn't lose much to a correction.  You're like bond investors worrying about the end of the stock bubble.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #458 on: June 26, 2019, 02:58:23 AM »
The last two Renaissances of architecture also came at the heights of an equipment debate.  They are tghe cause for architects to start thinking about architecture again, instead of just cashing checks.

All of those who worry about a rollback fail to have learned the lesson of the surge:  only the guys with high swing speeds gained much at all from modern equipment, so they shouldn't lose much to a correction.  You're like bond investors worrying about the end of the stock bubble.

Tom

I don't worry about anything golf related. Golf is a game.

IMO, golf makes more sense for the vast majority of golfers to retain the modern swinging weapons (not the yardage guns) and reduced yardage. I don't think there is any question that millions have been wasted on buying, shaping, grassing and maintaining land for courses beyond 6500 yards.... regardless of any equipment advances.

IMO, the focus on what happens with the pro game being allowed to shape the past, present and future of the game and courses has been and will continue to be a huge mistake. As I say, an influx of women into the game would be of great service for men.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #459 on: June 26, 2019, 08:40:41 AM »
Journalism, for the most part, has always been a commercial venture; golf magazines are no different in that regard.  My father was a newspaper writer and editor; advertisers paid our mortgage, not the quarter that a paper cost.  That didn't mean that he was writing or printing things that made the advertisers happy for the purpose of making the advertisers happy.  Taking that view of what a journalist in has written in ANY publication if you happen to disagree with it is just Conspiracy Theory 101.  Arguments either stand or fall on their own logic and the evidence, I've found.


As for Nicklaus, if there is another person in the history of the game that has done more to make golf slower and more expensive AND more difficult through his own GCA, I can't come up with a name.  His diatribes on length mean nothing to me; nobody has built more golf courses where length off the tee was necessary in order to be able to hit a second shot that would work.  I don't enjoy his golf courses in most cases for exactly that reason.  If that's painting him with a broad brush, so be it, but at 67 now, I NEED good equipment and the modern ball to play HIS golf courses, even from 6000 yards or less.

In his day, Nicklaus dominated IN PART because he could hit the ball 300 yards when he needed/wanted to, and almost nobody else could.  Hell, he hit it through the green on 18 at the Old Course a half century ago! If someone could provide a quote from JN from THOSE days in which he says that HIS length was a problem and that the ball was going too far, I'd just love to read that.  But for what amounts to a deathbed conversion now that a LOT of players for a LOT or reasons, including but not limited to, the golf ball, can hit it 300+ is just about the most meaningless thing I can think of.



"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #460 on: June 26, 2019, 09:48:12 AM »
Someone provided a quote from Jack complaining to the USGA that the ball went to far from very early in his career, long before the current ball was invented. So now you have heard about it A.G.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #461 on: June 26, 2019, 09:54:27 AM »
Further evidence that Jack wanted the ball to travel less far for a long time.
https://www.si.com/vault/1984/07/23/620151/a-golf-ball-that-wont-carry-as-far-enabled-jack-to-build-a-minicourse
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #462 on: June 26, 2019, 10:41:13 AM »
Further evidence that Jack wanted the ball to travel less far for a long time.
https://www.si.com/vault/1984/07/23/620151/a-golf-ball-that-wont-carry-as-far-enabled-jack-to-build-a-minicourse


The Cayman ball was also a commercially driven venture, which failed miserably.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #463 on: June 26, 2019, 01:23:28 PM »
I fail to see why manufacturers would suffer financially if the ball was reigned back, and why the advertising revenue of magazines should suffer.


Would less balls be sold? Of course not!


Would prices/margins fall?  Don't be silly!

Would Titleist not still be the leading manufacturer? Probably. They would still have the biggest R&D budget and would maximise performance within the new constraints.


If anything I would have thought that reigning in the ball would give a commercial advantage to the big, long established manufacturers and an opportunity to increase market share at the expense of the newer entrants.

Roman Schwarz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #464 on: June 27, 2019, 11:26:53 AM »
I fail to see why manufacturers would suffer financially if the ball was reigned back, and why the advertising revenue of magazines should suffer.


Would less balls be sold? Of course not!


Would prices/margins fall?  Don't be silly!

Would Titleist not still be the leading manufacturer? Probably. They would still have the biggest R&D budget and would maximise performance within the new constraints.


If anything I would have thought that reigning in the ball would give a commercial advantage to the big, long established manufacturers and an opportunity to increase market share at the expense of the newer entrants.


In business, the only thing worse than knowing you're going to make less money is the uncertainty of whether you're going to make more, less, or the same.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #465 on: June 27, 2019, 12:09:29 PM »
Would Titleist not still be the leading manufacturer? Probably.
Thing is neither you nor, more importantly they, know that.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

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