[jeffwarne]

  But it was cool to go to my HS reunion a few years ago, and have so many old friends remind me that I was actually doing the thing I wanted to do when I was 13.

+1

[jeffwarne]

To other points:


Royal Portrush added a lot of yardage to the Dunluce.  If you don't think that was a goal, you're fooling yourself.


Royal Melbourne has very little room to lengthen; there are fences behind many tees, especially on the longer holes.  They compensate by getting the greens incredibly firm and fast.  If they ever got a wet month for a big event, scoring would be very low - but they would dismiss it as an aberration, which it would be.  Australia is a pretty dry place.

Exactly, the reason more courses haven't lengthened is that they have no room to do so. That doesn't mean they didn't feel a need to or endorse hot equipment.
Not saying they should or shouldn't-just saying most that have the room (and money) do

[John Kavanaugh]

  But it was cool to go to my HS reunion a few years ago, and have so many old friends remind me that I was actually doing the thing I wanted to do when I was 13.

+1

And now 40 years later you don't want the 13 year olds of today playing the same game as their heroes. Just so you don't have to back track a tee now and then. Shame on you.

[jeffwarne]

  But it was cool to go to my HS reunion a few years ago, and have so many old friends remind me that I was actually doing the thing I wanted to do when I was 13.

+1

And now 40 years later you don't want the 13 year olds of today playing the same game as their heroes. Just so you don't have to back track a tee now and then. Shame on you.

A Russian Bot?


I do want the 13 year playing the same game as his heroes, who develop their games on the course and practice areas, not on a mat with a entourage of white coated men in machine and computer laden labs.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff:


Oh I was interested in this work in high school.  I just didn't know how to pursue it, and felt some pressure to pursue other things due to very high test scores.  But it was cool to go to my HS reunion a few years ago, and have so many old friends remind me that I was actually doing the thing I wanted to do when I was 13.

That  "pressure" was sort of what I was referring to.  After I told my Dad I was going to be a golf course architect, he replied, "Shouldn't you do something that to use your head?"  I saw a HS friend of mine, and he recalled Dad asking him the same question, so he told Dad, "No problem, I'll wear a hat."  LOL


In HS and even in landscape architecture in college, I was constantly told I shouldn't waste time on golf courses.


A decade ago, U of I brought me back as part of their alumni speaking series.  They introduced the other speaker as "She does REALLY important work in senior housing.....and Jeff designs golf courses. (insert sarcastic tone to get the idea)


All in all, you get a lot of negativity when you announce your goal to be a golf course architect, so much so that I advise youngsters that the first test of a golf course architect is to ignore all the advice to the contrary.

[John Kavanaugh]

  But it was cool to go to my HS reunion a few years ago, and have so many old friends remind me that I was actually doing the thing I wanted to do when I was 13.

+1

And now 40 years later you don't want the 13 year olds of today playing the same game as their heroes. Just so you don't have to back track a tee now and then. Shame on you.

A Russian Bot?


I do want the 13 year playing the same game as his heroes, who develop their games on the course and practice areas, not on a mat with a entourage of white coated men in machine and computer laden labs.

I hope that you don't believe that bifurcation will end optimization. In my opinion it will be quite the opposite. The only way to prevent a promising young player from caving to the peer pressure of the longer youth Tiger ball will be to send him to athletic specific prep academies where everyone plays the same ball. The ball they will be playing in college and national amateur events. It's done wonders for American tennis.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Royal Melbourne has very little room to lengthen; there are fences behind many tees, especially on the longer holes.  They compensate by getting the greens incredibly firm and fast.  If they ever got a wet month for a big event, scoring would be very low - but they would dismiss it as an aberration, which it would be.  Australia is a pretty dry place.

Just to be a contrarian and to circle back to my earlier post about people responding to incentives...


I think we certainly can all agree that with technology today, one could LIDAR survey any green and its surrounds, and it could be reconstructed exactly as it was at whatever yardage was deemed appropriate at this point in time.


Lather. Rinse. Repeat.


So, what's stopping that from happening? Costs alone?

[Jason Topp]

The USGA just released its 2017 data.  Jump in driver distance for professionals in 2017 may explain why this topic has generated some renewed interest.

http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2018/2017-distance-report-final.pdf

[JESII]

Importantly, they focus on the average among a tour players...yet the broadcasts highlight/drool over the occasional Rory-DJ-Woodland bomb that carries 315 and rolls another 40.


The stats around driver usage are very helpful. Don’t remember seeing them before.

[Jeff Schley]

The USGA just released its 2017 data.  Jump in driver distance for professionals in 2017 may explain why this topic has generated some renewed interest.

http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2018/2017-distance-report-final.pdf

Good info, but this is the same report that is found in the other distance thread.  Web.com guys bomb it.

[JESII]

“The big balata ball was easier to chip with no doubt - but we all played surlyn 1,62 balls. There were no small balata balls in Australia in the 70s”


Mike Clayton,


Is this to mean you played an equivalent to the Titleist DT, or other well known surlyn balls I grew up playing?

[Jason Topp]

The USGA just released its 2017 data.  Jump in driver distance for professionals in 2017 may explain why this topic has generated some renewed interest.

http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2018/2017-distance-report-final.pdf

Good info, but this is the same report that is found in the other distance thread.  Web.com guys bomb it.

I believe it is the same study updated a year later. 

[Sean_A]

To other points:

Royal Portrush added a lot of yardage to the Dunluce.  If you don't think that was a goal, you're fooling yourself.

It depends on what you consider a lot.  I think it was ~150 yards...7200ish to 7350ish, that is less than a 3% increase and absolutely meaningless where the pros are concerned.  In truth, the new holes (7 & 8 replacing 17 & 18) was a net loss of yardage...no?  Pushing the 2nd green back (a very dubious change imo) added about half the yardage of the redo.  No, I think the main reason was two new holes which are meant to be spectacular....in other words, improving the course. 

Ciao

[Mike_Clayton]

Is this to mean you played an equivalent to the Titleist DT, or other well known surlyn balls I grew up playing?


Jim,

I grew up playing with whatever I could find:)
The best balls in Australia were the Dunlop 65,Slazenger B51 and the Spalding Hot Dot.
Everyone pretty much played with one of those three models. When Nicklaus,Player and Palmer came down here they played the Dunlop or Slazenger (it was the same company) ball.

[JESII]

Got it...I was thinking/wondering about the playability.


Hadn't occurred to me that the small ball was also rock hard so chipping/pitching around those greens would have been brutal.


That said, you likely lost those 25 yards with the big ball but regained every bit of that lost advantage around the greens, no?

[Stephen Davis]

So whose voice should we believe:  the "independent" journalist, or the guy who played competitively his whole life, and has no fear of equipment companies?


P.S.  I was surprised to see Jack Nicklaus name Titleist directly in his latest statement.  That was an escalation of the war.

I agree 100% with your last statement, Tom. Nicklaus specifically calling out Titleist as being the primary perpetrator of the quest for infinite golf ball distance with no checks and balances was both striking and shocking. Essentially, he went after the biggest fish in the pond, but what comes of it is anyone's guess? I suspect, as you do, that most golf journalists are on the advertisers dole and dare not bite the hands that feed them. So you cannot realistically expect them to grab the baton Nicklaus is extending and run with it. Fortunately, we have websites such as My Golf Spy and The Hacker's Paradise that aren't beholden to advertisers and thus are free to print and publish whatever they so choose without too much fear of reprisals. Golf Digest and Golf Magazine aren't as fortunate, as their survival and livelihood is dependent on advertising dollars, far more so than it is subscriptions.

You are completely mistaken if you think there is no bias at MyGolfSpy or Hackers Paradise.  Both work directly with OEMs and do not treat all companies the same.  Its very hard to find non biased coverage of anything these days but those are not two good examples.

Ari,

I am glad you posted this. It needs to be said. I have been on staff and a tester with these sites and they are far from independent. They tow the line or peddle their preconceived notions as they see fit.

[jeffwarne]

I do want the 13 year playing the same game as his heroes, who develop their games on the course and practice areas, not on a mat with a entourage of white coated men in machine and computer laden labs.

I hope that you don't believe that bifurcation will end optimization. In my opinion it will be quite the opposite. The only way to prevent a promising young player from caving to the peer pressure of the longer youth Tiger ball will be to send him to athletic specific prep academies where everyone plays the same ball. The ball they will be playing in college and national amateur events. It's done wonders for American tennis.



I would agree-a whole new era for optimization!
"our cllub hits the standard ball the best!"

[Stephen Davis]

I'd happily make such a wager with you, Jeff. It hasn't gone up a yard per year over the last 15; there's no evidence to support the idea that it will go up a yard per year for the next 25. None.

Im catching up on this thread, but I have to say this quote didn't age well 

[Jake Marvin]

Speak of the devil, here's a fun one that just showed up in my inbox:


https://mygolfspy.com/a-ball-too-far-usga-releases-its-2017-distance-report/


There's so much wrong with the line of reasoning they use that I don't care to dig into it, but it goes to show how misinformation can skew the debate, since over 90% of readers answer the question "Would you want to play with a golf ball that went 20% shorter?" (again, totally unbiased...) to the negative. And I enjoy the irony of a site that claims to challenge the big manufacturers and provide golfers with unbiased information doing exactly the opposite.


Choice quote: "Courses setup is clearly a better solution than rolling back the ball, but who foots that bill?"

[archie_struthers]

 






Here's what's left out of the distance debate for the most part. Most of us don't hit it hard enough , swing fast enough to realize the max increases with the new equipment /balls. So doesn't it stand to reason that if we make it so the ball doesn't react like a super ball (remember them ) at say 110 MPH and follows a curve that is flat everybody wins .


You know they can do this ! 😎😡

[JESII]

Archie my buddy...the actual science is the opposite of what you think.

[archie_struthers]

Jim my old pal. 😘.  I'm pretty sure that at some critical speed the new equipment is disproportionately effective . If not 85 mph boys would be hitting it clser to the big speed boys.  Pretty sure the gap has increased from top to bottom. 




Any PH d's on this listening in ?

[JESII]

As swing speed goes up, COR goes down...very slightly.

[JESII]

Sorry I was brief...I was driving. Ha

[Ari Marcus]

In my opinion it's a combination of the golf ball and C.O.R. being .830. USGA/R&A should ban spring-like effect. 

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