[Adam Lawrence]

Tim


Do you not think that the greatest championships in golf should be contested on the greatest courses?

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim


Do you not think that the greatest championships in golf should be contested on the greatest courses?

Adam,


Exactly, and why I have to question if these modern courses built under consideration of the feelings of the 14 handicap are truly our greatest courses. Because of talent leap and feelings creep the modern architect is finding himself in a unfortunate pigeon hole. His only solution is to attack the talent leap with multiple balls that everyone hits the same distance. If he succeeds the feelings creep wins.


The manufacturers are chomping at the bit to introduce and market a ball for every player. I wouldn't be surprised if half the people calling for bifurcation are twitter bots paid for by the manufacturers. I've never met a real person who wants to play different equipment than the pros.


I even followed Ricky Fowler around a few years back when he played St. Andrews behind our group. I can't imagine the lack of authenticity that experience would have had if he had played a different ball than me. You know, he isn't than long if he doesn't want to be. Our drives on 18 found the same location and my buddy couldn't help but ask Ricky if he laid off one. It was all great fun for the last 400 years it lasted.

[Mike_Clayton]

'The manufacturers are chomping at the bit to introduce and market a ball for every player. I wouldn't be surprised if half the people calling for bifurcation are twitter bots paid for by the manufacturers. I've never met a real person who wants to play different equipment than the pros.'

John,

The 1.68' ball was made compulsory on the Australian Tour in 1978. It was six years before the big ball was made compulsory for all players yet almost every club amateur in the country stayed with the 1.62' ball - thus playing different equipment from the pros.I assume the exact same thing happened all over the 1.62' world.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


As I said earlier on this thread, I played the small ball a few times back in the 70's and did not find it any better than the Titleist ProTraj 100 Black. I think, as you said earlier, it just wasn't as good a ball. Most likely it had as much to do with poor manufacturing controls and materials as the size of the ball.


I think a lot of it may also have to do with having a eye for the ball you always liked. Sorry but either way, I simply believe the best ball won.

[John Kavanaugh]

You may enjoy this: I went to Mayo Clinic because I had been diagnosed with a tumor on my thyroid. When the endocrinologist drew a picture of the tumor he said it was the size of a golf ball. My response was that he must have played golf back in his home country. Crickets. Come on, the thing 1.62 if it was an inch.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Tim


Do you not think that the greatest championships in golf should be contested on the greatest courses?

This is a bit of a different issue, but if you truly feel that way then shouldn’t they hold majors in countries other than the US and UK.

[Mike_Clayton]

As I said earlier on this thread, I played the small ball a few times back in the 70's and did not find it any better than the Titleist ProTraj 100 Black. I think, as you said earlier, it just wasn't as good a ball. Most likely it had as much to do with poor manufacturing controls and materials as the size of the ball.


John


That's a different question from amateurs always wanting to play what the pros did. They clearly did not in Britain and Australia/NZ and all the other countries who played the small ball from 1978-1982.


It depends on which small ball you played. Jack Nicklaus told a friend of mine in 1994 (Turnberry Open) the 1971 Australian Slazenger B51 - which Jack used when he played in Australia - was 'the longest ball ever made'
The small ball may not have been better but it went 25 yards further for a scratch player. And if it wasn't better why did Nicklaus use in in Florida in the 1971 World Cup? He used it presumably because he thought it gave him an advantage.
It was a much 'better' ball in the wind than the Pro Traj Titelist - which was a brutal ball in the wind - and why most pros in Australia played the Low Traj Titleist.
The big balata ball was easier to chip with no doubt - but we all played surlyn 1,62 balls. There were no small balata balls in Australia in the 70s

[John Kavanaugh]

I was a plus handicap in the 70's playing against Fuzzy in tournaments in southern Indiana. I would have got in his shorties for ten more yards. I just can't believe that I passed on the small ball if it was that good.

[Mike_Clayton]

John,


Well - aside from that it was illegal.

[Kalen Braley]

John,


Years ago, I was playing my home course in Washington state and found a ball in the long rough with a logo I didn't recognize.  A couple rounds later I gave it a try and much to delight I was loving how much longer my drives were going, 20-25 yards.  So I looked it up online after the round and sure enough it was an illegal smaller ball.  I was tempted to keep playing it but actually felt guilty at the prospect....

[John Kavanaugh]

John,


Years ago, I was playing my home course in Washington state and found a ball in the long rough with a logo I didn't recognize.  A couple rounds later I gave it a try and much to delight I was loving how much longer my drives were going, 20-25 yards.  So I looked it up online after the round and sure enough it was an illegal smaller ball.  I was tempted to keep playing it but actually felt guilty at the prospect....

So even back then you hit the ball as far as the best players of the day. Sorry but if Nicklaus gains 25 yards, you gain 6 at best.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,


Well - aside from that it was illegal.

Given the Vietnam war was just ending I would file that under mitigating circumstances. I vaguely remember discussions about the R&A and playing under their rules. But on doing further research I see that Arnold Palmer won the Open with a small ball made by Wilson Staff. We were a 100% Wilson Staff club so maybe that is why the balls were available. Tough to remember reason why.


You will find an interesting quote from Jack Nicklaus about the small ball in this article: http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/media-center/news-articles/arnold-palmer-british-ball/ Seems to me that if we are currently playing a ball that goes the same distance that the ball Arnold used to win the 61 Open, things can't be all that bad.

[Mike_Clayton]

John,


Jack may think it went 50 yards further - and perhaps it did for him - but that wasn't anybody's experience on the tour here. It was closer to 25 for most of us.
I saw Norman play it in 1974 - he was ridiculously long with it.

[Mike Sweeney]

So even back then you hit the ball as far as the best players of the day. Sorry but if Nicklaus gains 25 yards, you gain 6 at best.

I agree with probably 92% of your nonsense but honestly you are wrong here. My son, who you met at had dinner with, is burdened with my genes, and even worse, his Mom's genes.


I can smoke him in golf, but that will change if he starts playing more in his next stage of life. However, he hits the ball 50 yards past me when he catches his best drive versus my best drive. He is simply better conditioned and is more finely tuned than our generation. I see it all the time at Yale with their baseball and lacrosse athletes. I can smoke them too over 18 holes (some not all), but they are 50 yards past me.


Now add that distance to someone who specializes in golf, has crazy touch like Nicklaus, and realize that there are 100's of these guys out there. There are 100's of Mike Clayton's version of Greg Norman's now due to conditioning, technology, and agronomy.


Your view of distance in golf is similar to private golf clubs. It's dated and not relevant to the modern game. Australia (and Mike Clayton as the leader) is our only hope.


I genuinely credit Tom Doak for his position here. Reality is, he is an American designer swimming upstream. Michael Clayton has a chance in OZ.


PS - Just saw Mike Clayton's post on Norman. I will always remember Norman playing with Tom Watson on the 2nd hole at Merion in 1981 US Open. Par 5 with OB right and perfect visuals to watch a drive. It was a joke. Nobody has that advantage today.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


Do you understand that my quote was to Kalen. When Kalen found this small ball I would estimate that Jack was at least 40 strokes better than him for 18 holes. Do you believe for a second that their distance gains through technology would be equal?

[John Kavanaugh]

I genuinely credit Tom Doak for his position here. Reality is, he is an American designer swimming upstream. Michael Clayton has a chance in OZ.

Doak is just trying to protect his legacy. He wants to be remembered as a great architect. Not just as the guy who built pretty pictures that were enjoyed by mid level golfers. He knows that only those who challenge the best stand the test of time. Sadly he wants the best to come back to him.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


Do you understand that my quote was to Kalen. When Kalen found this small ball I would estimate that Jack was at least 40 strokes better than him for 18 holes. Do you believe for a second that their distance gains through technology would be equal?

John,


I think you're reading too much into it.  The biggest difference was the ball flight, the smaller ball flew lower and most of the distance gains were probably due to roll, especially given my tendancy to hit my drives on the high side...


P.S.  Percentage wise, the gain was only 8-10%...

[Mike Sweeney]

Doak is just trying to protect his legacy. He wants to be remembered as a great architect. Not just as the guy who built pretty pictures that were enjoyed by mid level golfers. He knows that only those who challenge the best stand the test of time. Sadly he wants the best to come back to him.

Somewhere in the archives, Doak and I talk about him being an INTJ - https://www.16personalities.com/intj-personality


He does not care about legacy (within reasonable human boundaries of not caring), despite the fact that many of the courses he has built are legacy building.


Doak has always been a contrarian, and his position here is consistent with his personality. For crying out loud, he left MIT for Cornell. Goodness know I am slightly obnoxious about my Cornell credentials but it ain't MIT. Tom left for the Ag School which MIT did not have.


Also somewhere in the archives, I have you and Tom competing for #1 and #2 on the GCA Double Standard Club, but I do think Tom thinks this is the best thing for golf. I have been wrong before...

[Tom_Doak]

Doak has always been a contrarian, and his position here is consistent with his personality. For crying out loud, he left MIT for Cornell. Goodness know I am slightly obnoxious about my Cornell credentials but it ain't MIT. Tom left for the Ag School which MIT did not have.


Also somewhere in the archives, I have you and Tom competing for #1 and #2 on the GCA Double Standard Club, but I do think Tom thinks this is the best thing for golf. I have been wrong before...

Thanks for the defense ... I think!

I do not care at all about credentials.  Credentialism is b.s. 

M.I.T. was a great school, but it took a semester and a half for me to understand I didn't want to do any of that with my life, and I wanted to find a way to pursue golf course architecture.  In fact, after working one summer at Long Cove, I could see that my degree wasn't going to have much to do with my career, but since I was only a year from graduating ... and I thought I had a shot at that overseas scholarship  ... I went back and finished school.  It wasn't like I had a firm job offer, anyway!

[Sean_A]

Tim

Do you not think that the greatest championships in golf should be contested on the greatest courses?

Perhaps...now we just have to agree 1st, which are the greatest courses and 2nd, which of these courses are okay to be mucked up.  We have just seen two iconic GB&I courses redesigned to ensure "Open rights".  I am quite certain extra yardage was not the over-riding factor for Turnberry or Portrush.  Mind you, most people seem to agree that both courses are better for the changes even if a rare 100% Colt links was compromised in the process. 

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Tim


Do you not think that the greatest championships in golf should be contested on the greatest courses?

This is a bit of a different issue, but if you truly feel that way then shouldn’t they hold majors in countries other than the US and UK.

I'll tell that to the guys at Royal Melbourne. What rubbish.

[Mike Sweeney]

Tim


Do you not think that the greatest championships in golf should be contested on the greatest courses?

This is a bit of a different issue, but if you truly feel that way then shouldn’t they hold majors in countries other than the US and UK.

I'll tell that to the guys at Royal Melbourne. What rubbish.

Would any of the Doak courses (or C&C) on Oz be worthy of a Major. Again, they may have infrastructure and population flaws, but curious is any of them are "Major-ready"?


And how has Royal Melbourne handled the distance issues? That is one course that everyone seems to love.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thanks for the defense ... I think!

I do not care at all about credentials.  Credentialism is b.s. 

M.I.T. was a great school, but it took a semester and a half for me to understand I didn't want to do any of that with my life, and I wanted to find a way to pursue golf course architecture.  In fact, after working one summer at Long Cove, I could see that my degree wasn't going to have much to do with my career, but since I was only a year from graduating ... and I thought I had a shot at that overseas scholarship  ... I went back and finished school.  It wasn't like I had a firm job offer, anyway!

No doubt a separate thread, but would be interesting to hear other architects chime in on their experience getting from dreams to first job in the golf design or build industry.


In one way, I was way ahead of you, Tom. I knew in junior high school I didn't want my Dad's button down experience as a Campbell Soup sales manager (or other big corporation).

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:


Oh I was interested in this work in high school.  I just didn't know how to pursue it, and felt some pressure to pursue other things due to very high test scores.  But it was cool to go to my HS reunion a few years ago, and have so many old friends remind me that I was actually doing the thing I wanted to do when I was 13.

[Tom_Doak]

To other points:


Royal Portrush added a lot of yardage to the Dunluce.  If you don't think that was a goal, you're fooling yourself.


Royal Melbourne has very little room to lengthen; there are fences behind many tees, especially on the longer holes.  They compensate by getting the greens incredibly firm and fast.  If they ever got a wet month for a big event, scoring would be very low - but they would dismiss it as an aberration, which it would be.  Australia is a pretty dry place.


The only one of my courses built to host a tournament is The Renaissance Club.  Our projects in Australia and NZ are all resorts and one private club so we didn't waste time thinking about an event that will never come.  However I am confident that no matter what the winning score, if you held a pop-up Tour event on any of our courses, it would deliver a worthy champion.

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