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Garland Bayley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #375 on: March 08, 2018, 12:41:17 PM »
Point really being...was he breaking the course record with regularity and has since gone on to become a household name?

No, he was not breaking the course record with regularity. But, courses add length to attract players like him. Problem is/was he was super talented without really trying, which is what disgusted his brother who really tried. Great course management too.

How would he have done head to head against Kavanaugh if they played for a week?

I'm sure he would have buried Kavanaugh.


Did you saddle him with any putting tips?

Most of the motivation was to learn the greens at least as his father moved about a lot. My understanding is the mother stayed put, older son went with dad, younger son with mom. I don't have many putting tips. The one that has seemed to help people is the one that Harvey Penick gave Davis III when he struggled with lagging. Michael Jordan (a friend of Davis) doesn't concentrate on distance when he shoots, he just gets a look and shoots. Being a former BBall jock, that helped me the most.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #376 on: March 08, 2018, 12:46:14 PM »
Ok, but Kalen, to what end?


Also...who is most likely to figure out how to overcome that roll back? The Tour player with tons of science at his disposal to sort out all launch conditions or you?


Just like most things in life, there doesn't need to be an end.  Its an ongoing thing that you tweak and play with year after year to find a good balance. If I learned anything in my college business classes its that the game is never over...


P.S.  The science part is easy.  Any reputable ball manufacturer could accomplish this with an experimental lab and an iron bryon..
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 12:48:10 PM by Kalen Braley »

V. Kmetz

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #377 on: March 08, 2018, 12:58:36 PM »
Jeff



  ...As I said earlier, Turnberry and Portrush were recently altered and yardage was not the primary reason for the work.  The folks in power thought better courses could be created...and a great many people think this was achieved.   

Ciao


SA,


With regards to "better" and it's "achievement"...is that better IN LIGHT of the new conditions?


...better than "how it played" in some former year or better than it "has been playing" in the last 15-20?


In either case, I think the manner in which you cast the statement supports the alarums being sounded here, and the calls for a rollback/bifurcation of (or between) tournament/championship/professional golf and commoners who the manufacturers can peddle the hottest stuff.


Unless you are saying there was some non-distance defect(s) in Turnberry and Portrush that have long existed and is now being solved... but I don't think that is what has happened...I think the distance the ball travels was thought to minimize the challenge that such courses presents to championship golf...a challenge/stimulant that most thought was well intact for all the decades before the millennium...but now is not good enough because the ball flies farther...


cheers   vk


"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

SL_Solow

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #378 on: March 08, 2018, 01:04:44 PM »
After all these pages, Kalen may have identified the real issue.  As i stated in the other distance thread, there are 2 issues arising out of the gains in distance that have come about over the last 20 or 30 years.  The first relates to architecture.  Whether it makes sense to us or not, many classic courses are being altered/lengthened because their membership believes that in order to be perceived as a first rate course, they must be long enough to challenge the best players.  Oftentimes this makes the architecture less interesting.  It increases costs and makes each round more time consuming.  As an aside, it rarely achieves its goal.


I suppose Barney is right when he says the members own the course so they can do what they want.  I would suggest that the owner of a Rembrandt is free to paint mustaches on all the faces but I submit that no one in their right mind would suggest that such actions should be considered good or even rational.  Having the right or ability to do something does not imply that exercising that right is a good thing.  Judgment remains a valuable commodity.


The second impact of the increase in distance is its alteration of the skills needed to be an outstanding golfer at the highest level.  For most of the history of the game, at least since the advent of the steel shaft, the ability to play all the clubs "through the bag"  was a common characteristic of the truly great players.  A key characteristic that separated many of the greats from the near greats was the ability to play long irons. Nicklaus was legendary but Hogan, Snead and Nelson were no slouches.  I could add others.  Today, long irons are used on tight driving holes and very long par threes.  An occasional par 5 requires a long iron for the 2nd shot while most only need a mid to short iron to reach the green in 2.  So what has always been an essential skill separating players is largely lost unless we build special courses of extraordinary length.  For regular play, tees would be much shorter and the maintenance cost would be outrageous.  Again, this only matters if as a spectator, one appreciates the variety of skills the game needed and which we are losing.


It is for another thread to discuss the concept of when a game reaches "maturity" so that it should preserve its essential character through rules making. Baseball did pretty well with wood bats and the distances between bases produce the close plays that make the game interesting.  Many argue that changes in tennis equipment have made the professional game less interesting.  For another time but I suggest that  changes in golf equipment have hurt the game in the 2 areas I have noted.  If one doesn't care about either issue, that is their choice.  I care but I am dubious that anything will be done about it.  Again, for another post.

JESII

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #379 on: March 08, 2018, 01:21:42 PM »


The second impact of the increase in distance is its alteration of the skills needed to be an outstanding golfer at the highest level.  For most of the history of the game, at least since the advent of the steel shaft, the ability to play all the clubs "through the bag"  was a common characteristic of the truly great players.  A key characteristic that separated many of the greats from the near greats was the ability to play long irons. Nicklaus was legendary but Hogan, Snead and Nelson were no slouches.  I could add others.  Today, long irons are used on tight driving holes and very long par threes.  An occasional par 5 requires a long iron for the 2nd shot while most only need a mid to short iron to reach the green in 2.  So what has always been an essential skill separating players is largely lost unless we build special courses of extraordinary length.  For regular play, tees would be much shorter and the maintenance cost would be outrageous.  Again, this only matters if as a spectator, one appreciates the variety of skills the game needed and which we are losing.




Shelly,


Do you truly think today's top players hit fewer long irons in the course of a round/tournament than the top guys 50 years ago did? I would put hybrids in the long iron category because they take the same place in a bag.


I suggest (with zero evidence) that Jason Day will hit as many 2, 3 and 4 irons as Nicklaus did. "we" just don't like it because most of them are on par 5's. Performance on those par 5's is critical to success today the same way success with long irons was critical then...

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #380 on: March 08, 2018, 01:26:56 PM »
The list of Rembrandt's without mustaches would be short.

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #381 on: March 08, 2018, 01:52:34 PM »

Garland,


I carved out this paragraph because it gets right to my point...and we agree. Courses are being changed for the guys that hit the ball a mile AND shoot really low scores....

That's where we disagree. Courses are being changed, because they need players to stay solvent. If you cannot attract the long hitters to play your course, you are giving up a part of the market that you used to have.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #382 on: March 08, 2018, 01:56:01 PM »
...
Truth of the matter is, I was a scratch player when the Top Flight was introduced. It was not any longer than a premium balata ball. It just didn't cut. I grew up playing a course where during the best conditions possible I could drive 4 of the par 4's with a balata ball. If I could have driven those greens more often with a Top Flight I would have been playing a Top Flight. Not a single decent player did which is the only evidence I got on that.

If your tee shots did not balloon up and fall short hitting the balata ball, while they did not with the TopFlite, then you must not have been very good.

By the way, it is easy to claim not having been beaten by a high school player if you don't play them. ;)  :P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #383 on: March 08, 2018, 02:02:58 PM »

Garland,


I carved out this paragraph because it gets right to my point...and we agree. Courses are being changed for the guys that hit the ball a mile AND shoot really low scores....

That's where we disagree. Courses are being changed, because they need players to stay solvent. If you cannot attract the long hitters to play your course, you are giving up a part of the market that you used to have.


Unless the benefits of not catering to the long hitters adds to their attractiveness to a much broader segment...thereby increasing their potential audience.


That's the debate...

SL_Solow

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #384 on: March 08, 2018, 02:06:57 PM »
Jim,  As an old guy who saw everyone since Palmer play, I can answer your question affirmatively.  A few examples; Nicklaus' famous shot to 17 in the 72 Open at Pebble was a 1 iron.  Hogan's to 18 at Merion to force a playoff; 1 iron.  I saw many players play long irons to Augusta's 13 and 15.  Long par 4's often required long irons.  Don't see that today even with hybrids as substitutes.

JESII

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #385 on: March 08, 2018, 02:12:34 PM »
Understood, but maybe you misunderstood my question.


Today, at Merion, a Tour player would likely hit a long iron on 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9 (from new back tee), 10, 11, 17.


Do you think Hogan or Nicklaus hit more than that in their times?

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #386 on: March 08, 2018, 02:24:13 PM »

Garland,


I carved out this paragraph because it gets right to my point...and we agree. Courses are being changed for the guys that hit the ball a mile AND shoot really low scores....

That's where we disagree. Courses are being changed, because they need players to stay solvent. If you cannot attract the long hitters to play your course, you are giving up a part of the market that you used to have.


Unless the benefits of not catering to the long hitters adds to their attractiveness to a much broader segment...thereby increasing their potential audience.


That's the debate...

Outside those of us that follow golf architecture reasonably closely, don't you think that golfers in general see the trend of longer and par 72 is better, thereby looking to spend their dollars in that fashion?

Is it not only that a small segment of the golfers that are trying to defend shorter? E.g., many of those that participate on this website.

How is a course supposed to keep it's clientele when everything you hear about is longer, longer, longer? When the new tour pro "designed" boring layout opens nearby that has 6 sets of tees and maxes out at 7300 yards?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

SL_Solow

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #387 on: March 08, 2018, 02:25:09 PM »
I agree that if sufficiently lengthened, the classics can restore the need to hit long irons.  But they do so at significant expense and often lose some of the strategic values inherent in the old design.  What is gained?  I suppose some increase in distance for the recreational player.  But in what other sport do we think it makes sense to alter the fields of play at great expense simply to accommodate changes in equipment technology that do little to make the game more interesting or enjoyable.  I understand the appeal of the change from the guttie to the Haskell which also led to changes.  I don't now.  But again, I don't expect any significant changes.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #388 on: March 08, 2018, 02:33:50 PM »
In what other sport are the advances in athleticism on offense not met by equal advances on defense? If baseball was played off a tee stadiums would be altered year after year. The one use of a tee in football has required many forms of lengthening over the years. All we are are doing in golf is matching the advancements on offense with physical changes in defense.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #389 on: March 08, 2018, 02:41:40 PM »
Track doesn't have defense and even the 100 yd dash was lengthened by 10%.

JESII

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #390 on: March 08, 2018, 02:42:35 PM »
Garland,


My argument is that it takes education. I didn't see you as one to so easily chase the headlines...

SL_Solow

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #391 on: March 08, 2018, 02:52:22 PM »
Barney,   First, if you want to use baseball, any advances are largely strategic and analytical, the game is mature.  The hypothetical adjustments between offense and defense have nothing to do with the equipment.  The same is true in football and basketball although those sports appear to be less mature and thus adjust their rules more frequently..  The equipment has stayed the same.  In tennis, the change in rackets which allow players to hit even low shots harder with topspin has caused a change in strategy and reduced the variety in styles of play.  Sound familiar?  Second, your argument assumes its conclusion.  Absent the changes in equipment, I suggest that the differential in distance would be far less significant.  One will never know but I have often wondered how far the young Nicklaus would have hit a Pro V with a 460 CC driver and a 45 inch graphite shaft.  There were always long hitters.  More good athletes are playing golf, instruction is more readily available, they are training better etc  etc.  But give them the old clubs and the old balls and I'll take my chances.  Understand, i don't think it will happen, but we are paying a price in the cost of the game and the ill conceived modifications to many classic courses.


Finally, they always ran the 100 meters in international competitions, even in Jesse Owens' day.




Bryan Izatt

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #392 on: March 08, 2018, 02:58:42 PM »
Jonathan,


How would those club head specifications benefit the faster swinger more?


Test 500 identical balls with a 460cc driver and a persimmon head and let me know what you observe.


Ok, so I'm confused. In a conversation about rolling back the golf ball, a study by the USGA is referenced which refutes the assertion that the ProV1 style balls deliver a "turbo boost" to players that can swing the driver over 110 mph.


You suggest the study is insufficient because it doesn't discuss driver head technology, regardless of the fact that it was a study of the effect faster swings speeds have on the performance of the golf ball. OK!?!


I ask you what the driver heads would do to the study and you tell me to go pound sand...OK!?!


So, I can only surmise that you think "trampoline effect" is where the faster swingers get their "turbo boost"...


So...can you remind of the performance characteristics of the 460cc driver faces as swing speeds go up? Does COR increase as swing speed increases?


My original statement, and my response reflect the same concept: There are two very different components of the energy transfer at impact, and that the variables introduced by one component was not reflected in a conclusion published by the USGA that purported to comment on the changes in the distance of shots.




I posted the link to try to dispel the myth that the modern ball has a speed above which a player gets a disproportionate gain in distance.  That's what the study was designed to address, and there isn't such a characteristic. 


You disparaged the report, conducted by  PhD mechanical engineer in the best equipment testing lab in the world, as "thinly sourced" because it didn't address persimmon heads and distance.  That wasn' the point of the study nor the reason I posted it.  Why did you need to disparage it?


If you want to know about persimmon vs metal drivers and distance there are scientific studies out there.

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #393 on: March 08, 2018, 03:03:23 PM »
Understood, but maybe you misunderstood my question.


Today, at Merion, a Tour player would likely hit a long iron on 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9 (from new back tee), 10, 11, 17.


Do you think Hogan or Nicklaus hit more than that in their times?

What happens if we say the tour player is not hitting fairway woods anymore?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #394 on: March 08, 2018, 03:04:50 PM »
Track doesn't have defense and even the 100 yd dash was lengthened by 10%.

I don't often find you very funny, but you got me there.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #395 on: March 08, 2018, 03:07:37 PM »
... and on this forum I've seen 30% floated by at least one or two people.

I would be very surprised if you could prove this claim. As Jeff says, the only suggestion of 20% or more that I have heard is the one reported that Nicklaus suggested.
So, let me see your very surprised face Garland:

What’s needed is a really significant roll-back, or however it’s termed, in ball and equipment. Not just a few % points but a big jump, like 20-30%. How about (a symbolic) introduction for the 150th Open at TOC in 2021?Not holding my breath though.Atb

You could have done a search for yourself. If memory serves, too, this wasn't the only one. It was just the first that I found. Someone also posted 30% IIRC on Geoff's site (though he lost some comments in the switch-over recently).
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #396 on: March 08, 2018, 03:10:14 PM »
Garland,


My argument is that it takes education. I didn't see you as one to so easily chase the headlines...

I am in no position to educate the masses. However as green chairman on a course occupying 91 acres, clubhouse, parking lot, range, and those accursed cart barns included, I am under pressure to provide a course that can hopefully reach full membership again since we lost it to the great recession. I'm chasing customers.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #397 on: March 08, 2018, 03:14:51 PM »
... and on this forum I've seen 30% floated by at least one or two people.

I would be very surprised if you could prove this claim. As Jeff says, the only suggestion of 20% or more that I have heard is the one reported that Nicklaus suggested.
So, let me see your very surprised face Garland:

What’s needed is a really significant roll-back, or however it’s termed, in ball and equipment. Not just a few % points but a big jump, like 20-30%. How about (a symbolic) introduction for the 150th Open at TOC in 2021?Not holding my breath though.Atb

You could have done a search for yourself. If memory serves, too, this wasn't the only one. It was just the first that I found. Someone also posted 30% IIRC on Geoff's site (though he lost some comments in the switch-over recently).


I'm very surprised.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Craig Sweet

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #398 on: March 08, 2018, 03:16:36 PM »
I can't think of too many things worse than week in and week out tournaments with winning scores of -15 to -25.  That is a big turn off.  BORING!!!!
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Eric LeFante

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #399 on: March 08, 2018, 03:18:59 PM »
Pine Valley has added about 400 yards over the past 20 years.
Has it been ruined or diminished because of it?

I know you will say you don't care about the top courses because they represent less than 1% of the courses in the U.S., but this entire site is dedicated to the best of golf course architecture.
And of those what percentage have to worry about hosting PGA Tour events and thus worrying about how far the 0.001% hit the ball? And of those who do host PGA Tour players for events (majors or a regular Tour stop), how many of them have ruined their architecture for the average player, or the folks on this board?

And George, the 20% number has been floated by many, and on this forum I've seen 30% floated by at least one or two people.


None of the courses I mentioned are worrying about hosting a PGA Tour event. That's the point; it's not just PGA Tour courses. Equipment is affecting way more courses than that.

The architecture has been diminished for the 99.9% in my opinion. The courses that host tournaments are forced to narrow fairways in landing areas and speed up greens to keep the scores high. Most members at clubs want top notch conditioning like they see on TV, which means greens as fast as the pros play, even though the greens were not meant to be that fast, it slows down play, and costs a lot of money to maintain. What people see on TV trickles down throughout the entire game.


Do you think Riviera is set up well for the 99.9% that play the course? The fairways are really narrow (look at the 1st fairway) and the greens are too fast for the slopes on them. Do you think the superintendent at Riviera can tell members and guests, the greens run at 13 for the tournament but they are going to be 9 for the club championship and member guest?

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