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Ira Fishman

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2018, 06:16:20 PM »
Golf is played in 3-D.  Unfortunately, there are lots of architects who try to reduce it to 2-D ... making surfaces almost flat where they expect the ball to land, so that the bounce doesn't have to be factored into the equation.


We spend more time thinking about the contours where the ball is going to land, and designing based on those, than we spend thinking about how far a bunker is from the tee, or how long the hole is.  If you utilize the natural contours as part of the course's defenses, that's when you get the greatest results.


I am not disputing that contour is important.  But the assertion that started the thread is that it is the definition of the beginning of architecture.  I simply do not agree either for a course considered as a whole where routing is at least as important to the original sin or blessing of architecture or for individual holes--to take extreme but relevant examples, the ball hitting the ground is not where the architecture of Cypress Point 16 or Lahinch 5 even begin to begin.


Ira

Bill Brightly

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2018, 06:34:01 PM »
"conditioning" starts when the ball hits the ground.


"architecture" is enhanced when conditioning and sandy soil allow it to shine


I think Brad would approve of your clarification to his statement. I wish he would chime in here!

Bill Brightly

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2018, 06:39:04 PM »
Bill


I know you say this is the full comment but I wonder if there is anything else that might put it better into context, since as it reads at the moment it doesn’t make any sense, at least not to me.


I’d take “architecture” to mean the art of design, and surely an integral part of the design is where you tee off from. Where a player hits from will likely dictate what club is used and that will have a huge bearing on how the ball reacts when it hits the ground. That is true throughout the green I’d suggest. You cannot therefore divorce the landing area from the rest of the design so the statement makes no sense.


Niall


Niall, here is a link to Brad's full article. I'm sure that he would NOT want me to explain his words!


https://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/golf-course-architecture-appreciation-17672.htm

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2018, 07:46:14 PM »
Golf is played in 3-D.  Unfortunately, there are lots of architects who try to reduce it to 2-D ... making surfaces almost flat where they expect the ball to land, so that the bounce doesn't have to be factored into the equation.
I wish this were more true. I got into disc golf a few years ago, and one of the earliest appeals to it is how much more often the third dimension comes into play than it does in golf. (In reality, disc golf can almost be considered 4D, because discs can curve two directions in one throw, you have to consider time too… how long do you want a disc to turn over to the right, and how much do you want it to fade out left at the end…).

Unfortunately, far too many golf courses present more of a 2D problem. Golfers rarely have to consider height - whether to play the ball along the ground, in the air, etc. It's simply a matter of point-to-point navigation, with little concern of what's in between.

Unfortunately. The better the course, the more likely the third dimension comes into play, but all too often IMO golf is a 2D game.

P.S. Not quite the same definition of "3D" that you used, Tom, but I think you will know what I mean.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Steve Lang

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2018, 09:05:43 PM »
 8)  So it seems that some would have the 3D perspective off the first tee being the start of gca, but really once one knows where to go and where not to, gca all becomes a simple 2D endeavor...


Doesn't this appear to be, then, hey its a nice or dangerous view off the tee, but once you're experienced it, does it really haunt your appreciation of the course's rub of the green?? 


 just hit the ball, nnnnna, nnnna, spin, reset, repeat or follow the bouncing ball??
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

William_G

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2018, 09:14:15 PM »
golf is 4D plus that space between your ears
It's all about the golf!

William_G

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2018, 09:16:45 PM »
"conditioning" starts when the ball hits the ground.


"architecture" is enhanced when conditioning and sandy soil allow it to shine

golf as it was meant to be is links golf on sandy soil where conditioning is the same every day, no diff
It's all about the golf!

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2018, 11:58:48 PM »
William_G conditioning maybe the same day to day on a links, but the variation in bounce plus wind speed and direction, means conditioning actually plays only a modest part in how the links plays day to day. 
Cave Nil Vino

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2018, 03:44:32 AM »
I’d like to add to Tom’s 3D comment by repeating something I’ve said a few times before:


Most associate the ground game with contour. Tom says contour adds in another factor to consider. The latter point is certainly true (a good thing). The first point most certainly isn’t.


Whilst I love beautiful contour around greens, I would argue that it actually lessens the use of the ground game on many courses, exactly because of its unpredictability. When playing medal rounds, I am more likely to take an aerial route on a wildly undulating links course than I am on a flatter, level lying one....


It’s a little paradoxical to the kind of course I love - great contour is fantastic to look at and does indeed add mental consideration - but having been born and bred on links courses, I think it is true. The ground is used more when the outcome is more predictable.


Note I probably use it more in my normal game than all but a handful on here. So I’m not promoting the aerial game. I do think using the ground is directly proportional to good golf.


The key - of course - is to design holes that demand the ground to be taken as it provides the easier option even with wild undulation to negotiate.

Sean_A

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2018, 04:04:57 AM »
Ally

I largely agree. For me, using contours is mainly due to it being an easier or potentially less risky shot.  Keep a course firm and the contours matter more.  Well placed bunkers ups the ante.  The point really isn't about using contours...the point is there is a choice on offer.  But we have to remember that weather conditions won't always make it easy for the options to viable.  Sometimes, even, the climate simply isn't suited for playing along the ground.  Therefore designs should to a large degree reflect their climate.  I think turf evolution may help "solve" this issue, but that can be an overly expensive option for many clubs. I always use Cavendish as a perfect example.  Here we have a designer, Dr Mac, who expoused the use of contours and yet, at Cavendish he built a course over serious contours, but it is really an aerial design for the most part.  I am sure Dr Mac realized it rains a ton in the Peak District and designed the course with this in mind. Smart guy that Dr Mac.


All that said...architecture starts when one is on the tee  8)

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 04:06:53 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2018, 04:20:31 AM »
I'm still trying to figure out what "firm yet receptive" means....


It's a weasel phrase. It means 'firm but not too firm'.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2018, 06:47:18 AM »
Thanks Bill. I note that the "Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground" is actually a paragraph heading. On its own it doesn't make sense and nothing in the subsequent para really explains it but I guess he was just going for an eye catching heading.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2018, 06:59:06 AM »
"conditioning" starts when the ball hits the ground.


"architecture" is enhanced when conditioning and sandy soil allow it to shine

golf as it was meant to be is links golf on sandy soil where conditioning is the same every day, no diff

William

I think you are ignoring the seasonal aspect which also has an impact on links golf. The ball is going to run a hell of a lot more during a long dry period than it will say in a wet December. Likewise the rough in winter will be generally a lot more manageable in winter than in Spring. There's not a lot that the greenkeepers can do about that.

You also tend to have a general variation in wind directions between winter and non-winter (I hesitate to use the word summer in relation to Scotland as its not really a season as more a long weekend whose arrival is hard to predict) on top of the day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute variations you normally get anyway.

All of that adds up to the golfer having to work out anew his shot options when he steps onto a tee that he might have played from a hundred times before.

Niall

Rich Goodale

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2018, 09:14:43 AM »
I'm still trying to figure out what "firm yet receptive" means....


It's all about spin, Jeff.  In my many years in Scotland I've seen merely good players hit shots into hard, fast and firm greens downwind which then grip and spin gently and settle.  To me, that's "firm, yet receptive."

Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

William_G

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Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2018, 09:20:34 AM »
Niall,

thanks

The beauty of links golf and it's 4D is that it is different every time you play, AM/PM, 365.

it may be that design and architecture start at different places for different folks on different days....a thought provoking idea by Brad, LOL

cheers
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2018, 09:21:50 AM »

I'm still trying to figure out what "firm yet receptive" means....

is that what she said
It's all about the golf!

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