[mike_malone]

 Planting trees and deep fescue aren’t for me. Can’t we create a rough grass environment that generally allows for only a recovery but not a full shot without a penalty for a lost ball.

[Adam Clayman]

 

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sounds like you need some heather...

[mike_malone]

Heather is a good example of my ideal.

[Sean_A]

Heather can be extremely harsh if it isn't well tamed with trees set well back (or better yet, barely existing) and accompanied by generous fairways.  The problems with heather are the lost ball element and one dimensional recovery should the ball be found.

Ciao

[Joe Hancock]

Mayday,


What you are suggesting, in reality, is a less maintained rough...in the Northeast....good luck with that.

[Bill Brightly]

As a former Greens Chair, I know that Mayday is bringing up a GREAT question. If we are setting up my course for our club championship or a state or MGA event, I want our rough cut at 3 inches or more. But I also don't want to watch the rest of our membership struggle to get out of the rough during the week leading up to the event... (Way too many dinners with my senior citizen Mom saying: "Bill, you know us old people can't even find our balls let alone play out of the rough.") Ouch, check please!


For member play, I think the answer is a 2 1/2 rough cut and no first cut. Let them play out of the rough, but be ticked that they are no longer saved by the "prime cut."


With all due respect to my friends from he UK & I, you can'y understand our problem. Heather does nor grow in clay.

[Sean_A]

Bill

I understand the problem.  The same thing exists in the UK with a great many clubs on small budgets.  Come spring-early summer it can be a nightmare keeping rough down.  A club with money should have absolutely no problem controlling the rough should they choose to do so.  To me, 2.5 inches is far too high with normal width fairways and trees...without trees...maybe its okay, but not ideal.  I would rather see sub 2 inch patchy rough (not uniform...some good lies some shit lies...pot luck), but keep the good trees or (and this is the less ideal option imo) 65 yard wide fairways and whatever rough...not lost ball for sure, but that becomes something less to worry about.     

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Sean, I imagine that most of your golf is played on fescue and the greens are firm. So balls played from 2" rough are still hard to control. I'm thinking about typical parkland courses in the northeast US with poa/bent greens and bluegrass rough. With sub 2" rough its not too hard to get approach shots to hold the green, so missing fairways would have little meaning.


Plus, I play a lot of golf at private clubs. The roughs are going to be well-maintained. So the random lie scenario you endorse really won't happen.

[Sean_A]

Sean, I imagine that most of your golf is played on fescue and the greens are firm. So balls played from 2" rough are still hard to control. I'm thinking about typical parkland courses in the northeast US with poa/bent greens and bluegrass rough. With sub 2" rough its not too hard to get approach shots to hold the green, so missing fairways would have little meaning.

Plus, I play a lot of golf at private clubs. The roughs are going to be well-maintained. So the random lie scenario you endorse really won't happen.

I have played plenty of parkland golf and will say that 2.5 inches is deep for everyday play when the rough is uniformly lush...especially if playing courses which require a lot of carries.   

I don't think rough should be uniform...it should be pot luck....which I think is one of the best features of Yeamans Hall.  I recall Merion having 2.5 to 3 inch rough...a serious drag, but not as bad as bermuda rough of that length!

I guess I am not a proponent of rough as a major hazard and disagree with Mayday.  I am not certain you can have "penal" rough without ball searching. 

Ciao

[BCowan]

Rough should be un-irrigated.  When trees encroached golf course, especially pine trees.  Balls would go under pine trees before double and triple row irrigation was the norm.  Fairway width decreased mainly due to encroachment imo. 


With poor tree specimens removed, rough should be un-irrigated and nature should determine it's thickness.  Typically in the midwest, May will have dense rough and it thins out by mid June.   

[Dan Herrmann]

Our place has rough that is a pain for everybody.   It's primarily fescue, but it's thick.   It gets zero irrigation and the only "fertilizer" is the grass clippings left by the mowers.  But it just keeps growing.


Ben is right - the summer USED to thin it out quite a bit.   But the rain here in metro Philly has increased quite a bit in the last 10 years, so we don't get those great summer rough conditions these days.   


Plus, we've also had a fair amount of bermuda making inroads.   Life in the transition zone!

[Mark_Fine]

The game is hard enough.  Why do we need more "penal" rough? Any distinction in height from the fairway cut is enough to cause concern for a good player.  Why penalize the rest.  Are we trying to protect par?  If the course is well designed and playing firm and fast the angles of play for possibly being out of position "in the rough" will also cause enough added challenge. 

[mike_malone]

Mark,


As trees have come down some angles which weren’t originally intended for play are now open.
Oakmont number 11 parallels number 10 and I have myself pulled my drive on 10 onto 11 fairway. They now have some serious fescue that must be carried.
On 17 at Rolling Green it is easier to hook the drive into the trees left and play up the left side rough. This is because we took out trees.


I prefer the tougher rough in the tee shot landing area rather than the second shot area but don’t want lost balls.

[Ken Moum]

Planting trees and deep fescue aren’t for me. Can’t we create a rough grass environment that generally allows for only a recovery but not a full shot without a penalty for a lost ball.

I've seen the answer, and it's divine.


SHEEP!!!


The wonderful Brora Golf Club is known for the fact that it's almost impossible to lose a ball in the rough.  But it's also pot luck when it comes to advancing those balls.


No other "system" for thinning grass has the perfect randomness that grazing sheep do. The only trick is to have a grazing plan that doesn't take too much of the grass.


K

[jeffwarne]

Planting trees and deep fescue aren’t for me. Can’t we create a rough grass environment that generally allows for only a recovery but not a full shot without a penalty for a lost ball.

Why do we need penal rough?


and Ken nailed it-sheep

[Garland Bayley]

Planting trees and deep fescue aren’t for me. Can’t we create a rough grass environment that generally allows for only a recovery but not a full shot without a penalty for a lost ball.

Why do we need penal rough?


and Ken nailed it-sheep

Exactamundo. The only reason for penal rough is to let the mambi pambi straight hitting low handicapper try to keep his imagined superiority over other golfers.

[BHoover]

Exactamundo. The only reason for penal rough is to let the mambi pambi straight hitting low handicapper try to keep his imagined superiority over other golfers.

Thank god for the high cappers. They know best and are the soul of the game, just ask them.

[Garland Bayley]

Exactamundo. The only reason for penal rough is to let the mambi pambi straight hitting low handicapper try to keep his imagined superiority over other golfers.

Thank god for the high cappers. They know best and are the soul of the game, just ask them.

Did I forget the smiley face again?
 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Depends on the type of club.


Golf club? OK, I get it.


Country club or daily fee? Be ready for a member uproar and complaints about speed of play as the 65 year old 15 hdcp-er spends an extra XX minutes looking for his/her golf balls.


Doubt very much this move would receive glowing member reviews.


"Hey, Bob, you see that gnarly rough out there today?"
"Yeah, I did. Thought I lost the ball 8 feet off the fairway, but I found it. Had to hack a wedge out on the short stuff and take my medicine."
"Me, too, that was so much fun!"
"I know. We should ask the super to not dress the bunkers, and let the tree limbs get really low to the ground, too!!"

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sort of OT, but you never hear the term "4 iron rough" any more, i.e., it's hard to hit anything lower than a 4 iron out of it.  Back in 1977, when I started as a gca, it was one of the first terms I heard, while consulting with Dick Nugent at Onwentsia one day.


Sounds like what the OP is asking for.  Except today, it might be called the non-hybrid rough or something similar?

[mike_malone]

Jeff,
Your test meets my goal.


 I’m not suggesting that this should be everywhere but only to avoid angles created by tree removal on classic courses.

[Ed Brzezowski]

Mark,


As trees have come down some angles which weren’t originally intended for play are now open.
Oakmont number 11 parallels number 10 and I have myself pulled my drive on 10 onto 11 fairway. They now have some serious fescue that must be carried.
On 17 at Rolling Green it is easier to hook the drive into the trees left and play up the left side rough. This is because we took out trees.


I prefer the tougher rough in the tee shot landing area rather than the second shot area but don’t want lost balls.

18 is best played from the first fairway too.

[Jeff Schley]

I don't think we need more rough IMO, the irrigation is so much more prevalent and efficient just to make everything look green.  I have no problem with brown patches 10-15 yards from the fairway.  It is how I grew up playing on muni's.

[Mark_Fine]

I'm not buying the penal rough argument. If there are angles that are opened up from tree removal and they were angles the architect intended then that area should likely be fairway or playable grass.  If trees that were meant to be there were taken down, I still wouldn't likely plant penal rough to combat that.  I like to use Native grasses or less maintained areas, call them what you want, mostly in out of play areas. I don't like the idea of lost balls and slowly up of play.  The game is hard enough for most and the guy who hits it 50 yards offline and happens to end up in a nice spot, good for him. It probably won't happen all that offen.  And if it does and that line becomes the preferred line then maybe a more interesting hazard needs to be placed there to break up that line (assuming fairway is not the right option). 

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