[JWinick]

From watching pros obliterate some of the older courses and watching the pros struggle at the Honda Classic, it is obvious that it is very difficult to challenge the best players in the world without the fear of double-bogeys or worse.   


Yes, there are courses like Riviera that present a sufficient test without out of bounds or hazards, but the "difficult" course without out-of-bounds or water is becoming rare.    These guys just play with so little fear of a big score that you need the big numbers to keep scoring in line.    Is the future for the Tour events like the Players last year when it seemed like everybody (JB Holmes, Jason Day, etc.) was imploding down the stretch?


I don't wish for this to be the case, but I think it's becoming a reality, unless the USGA / R&A start regulating the technology.   Thoughts? 

[jeffwarne]

The wrong response to a scale issue.
The other 51 weeks people have to play the "response" to technology


.....or in this case-the simple real estate based bad architecture.


last week it was firm(good) and fast wobbly untrue(not so good) greens that held scores back....despite a plethora of wedges
again not addressing the scale


scale is the issue-and and the answer is enlarge the courses further(ick for a variety of reasons)-or shrink the distance the ball is struck (simple but about as easy to get done as a sensible gun control law)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Probably.  Not sure of the exact statement, but I think Pete Dye has said the only way to raise tour pros scores are to make sure the holes are tough enough to cause at least one double bogey to offset the near miraculous number of birdies.  Or, make the greens tough enough to reduce the number of birdies on there is a GIR.


Those guys really are good.  Back when my son was playing HS golf, I would watch him hit 15-16 greens nearly every round, maybe an average of 15-20 feet from the hole, but only make a few of those putts.  Then we follow Vijay Singh at the Byron Nelson, he hits 16 greens and makes a half dozen of those birdie putts.

[JWinick]

I don't disagree, but it seems clear to me that these guys just aren't worried about bunkers, rough, etc.

The wrong response to a scale issue.
The other 51 weeks people have to play the "response" to technology


.....or in this case-the simple real estate based bad architecture.


last week it was firm(good) and fast wobbly untrue(not so good) greens that held scores back....despite a plethora of wedges
again not addressing the scale


scale is the issue-and and the answer is enlarge the courses further(ick for a variety of reasons)-or shrink the distance the ball is struck (simple but about as easy to get done as a sensible gun control law)

[JWinick]

Jeff,


It's amazing how many more putts guys are making now and how many guys can go super low.   There are very few putters left on tour (maybe Molinari) that miss short putts anymore, and that's with much faster greens.


Jon

Probably.  Not sure of the exact statement, but I think Pete Dye has said the only way to raise tour pros scores are to make sure the holes are tough enough to cause at least one double bogey to offset the near miraculous number of birdies.  Or, make the greens tough enough to reduce the number of birdies on there is a GIR.


Those guys really are good.  Back when my son was playing HS golf, I would watch him hit 15-16 greens nearly every round, maybe an average of 15-20 feet from the hole, but only make a few of those putts.  Then we follow Vijay Singh at the Byron Nelson, he hits 16 greens and makes a half dozen of those birdie putts.

[Jeff Schley]

I can't find the historical putting averages, but here is the 2016 averages by distance.  Not much help without comparable stats. BTW I wish I 2 putted 92% of the time from greater than 25 feet.  Wow that is a telling stat for us amateurs, great lag putters the pros are.

• PGA Tour Putting Average — makes from 3 feet: 99.42%
• PGA Tour Putting Average — makes from 6 feet: 70.98%
• PGA Tour Putting Average — 3-Putt Avoidance >25′: 91.71%(This means they three-putt 9.29 percent of the time outside of 25 feet.)

*All stats cited in this article are from the complete 2016 PGA Tour season

[JWinick]

Jeff,


It was telling watching Norman's collapse on Youtube last year at the 1994 Masters.    He missed like two-feet putts.    It is increasingly rare for these guys to miss anything under 5 feet, unless they totally misread it, which doesn't happen as much now that everyone uses aimpoint.   


Jon

I can't find the historical putting averages, but here is the 2016 averages by distance.  Not much help without comparable stats. BTW I wish I 2 putted 92% of the time from greater than 25 feet.  Wow that is a telling stat for us amateurs, great lag putters the pros are.

• PGA Tour Putting Average — makes from 3 feet: 99.42%
• PGA Tour Putting Average — makes from 6 feet: 70.98%
• PGA Tour Putting Average — 3-Putt Avoidance >25′: 91.71%(This means they three-putt 9.29 percent of the time outside of 25 feet.)

*All stats cited in this article are from the complete 2016 PGA Tour season

[Carl Rogers]

Why are more putts holed? Green surfaces quality is so much higher.  No bad bounces, rolls or deflections.

[Tom_Doak]

The answer to your question is no.


However water and long rough are the only ACCEPTABLE solutions for the Tour. They don't like tilt in greens or otherwise tough targets.  I guess they struggled with the restored Redan at Waialae, even after moving the tee up and heavily watering the green.  The scoring averages for the Eden and Punchbowl were also higher than I would have expected.

[Jim Nugent]

Yes, there are courses like Riviera that present a sufficient test without out of bounds or hazards, but the "difficult" course without out-of-bounds or water is becoming rare.   

Oakmont doesn't rely on water, and though I'm not sure I think it doesn't depend on OB either.

As for Riviera, is a course where the winner shot 12 under-- where they fairly often go below 270 -- really that hard? 

[Dean Stokes]

-3 leading +5 cut. I was out there yesterday and it is just a hard golf course! As Berger said it demands full attention every shot. The rough is only about 2 inch but if you miss the fairway it’s all you can do to hit some of those greens.
The greens are angled nicely and not too big. All the par 3’s are demanding.
I know I’d rather watch them play this type of event rather than the standard -20 winning score every other week.
Great to see Tiger grinding it out. A good weekends golf in store - makes a change from the standard snooze fest.

[Joe Bausch]

Photos of PGA National from a day after the tourney in 2014:


http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PGANatlChampion/index.html

[jeffwarne]

Why are more putts holed? Green surfaces quality is so much higher.  No bad bounces, rolls or deflections.

Bingo.
Has zilch to do with Aimpoont.
They missed dozens of short putts at Rivierra due to nonsmooth fast green surfaces -
And-as greens speed up,cups are placed in flatter  areas-combined wjth smooth surfaces -makes for easier putting.

[Jon Wiggett]

Why are more putts holed? Green surfaces quality is so much higher.  No bad bounces, rolls or deflections.

Carl,


but that is only part of the reason. Greens are much flatter these days because of the stupid speeds they are maintained at for tour events. This in turn makes the greens easier to read and the hole effectively larger so holing putts is much easier now than 40 years ago.


To answer the OP question. In order to challenge top players today we need to actually slow greens down and put much more movement into them.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

A couple of comments -


Re Pro's putting on TV - look closely and objectively at the stats data and the calculation of averages etc - viewing golf on TV can be extremely subjective - the guys/gals we usually see holing 'all the putts' are the guys/gals playing well, ie at the top of the leaderboard. The guys/gals usually missing putts are the ones lower down the field, but we don't see them on TV very often unless they're a big name.


What do the TV pro's dislike - analyse where they make bogies/screw-up most. Is is par-5's? No. Is it middling even longish par-4's? No. Where they are making bogies is I suspect, or at least are more likely to, are holes with small, tilting, humpy-bumpy greens, especially very short par-3's and par-4's where the ego or desire to make an eagle gets the better of them. And curiously enough these are often the more thrilling type of holes for both spectator and TV viewing.


atb

[Joe Hancock]

Concerning putting, aren’t putters and golf balls manufactured with much better balance and true-ness charchteristics as well? That has to matter, or a lot of golfers have fallen prey to marketing.....

[Peter Flory]

It's tricky to compare putting apples to apples, but here is one look at it (for each of these, I'm using the 100th ranked player in that category/ also I'm comparing this year to 10 years ago and then to the earliest year with the data):

Average length of made birdie putts:
2002: 10' 4"
2008: 9' 9"
2018: 9' 10"

Putting make % from 4 feet
2002: 94.2%
2008: 91.0%
2018: 92.6%

It looks to me like guys like Elkington and Couples didn't have it any harder than guys like JT and Dustin Johnson. 

[JWinick]

Peter, it looks the 100-ranked player is a little closer to the hole, but its negligible.    What stands out today is the elite players are so solid within 5 feet.   There's a great clip of Bello making like 25 straight ten footers so nonchalantly on youtube, and he's not even considered a great putter.    Of course, there are exceptions, but you don't seem to see the better players miss.   

It's tricky to compare putting apples to apples, but here is one look at it (for each of these, I'm using the 100th ranked player in that category/ also I'm comparing this year to 10 years ago and then to the earliest year with the data):

Average length of made birdie putts:
2002: 10' 4"
2008: 9' 9"
2018: 9' 10"

Putting make % from 4 feet
2002: 94.2%
2008: 91.0%
2018: 92.6%

It looks to me like guys like Elkington and Couples didn't have it any harder than guys like JT and Dustin Johnson.

[JWinick]

Tom,


I don't disagree that there are exceptions, such as Oakmont for example.    But, if you're going to reign in green slopes while still trying to challenge the best players, you're forced to use rough and water hazards.   I think we can all agree that today's bunkers aren't hazards anymore, as most tour players prefer to be in the bunkers over rough.


Jon

The answer to your question is no.


However water and long rough are the only ACCEPTABLE solutions for the Tour. They don't like tilt in greens or otherwise tough targets.  I guess they struggled with the restored Redan at Waialae, even after moving the tee up and heavily watering the green.  The scoring averages for the Eden and Punchbowl were also higher than I would have expected.

[Kyle Harris]

No.


The way to challenge elite players is to ask them to hit precise shots from uneven lies.


The way to enjoy watching that challenge is to accept that elite players often have the skills to execute that particular shot.

[JWinick]

Kyle,


There not too worried about uneven lies when double-bogey is not in the cards.   


Jon

[Jim Hoak]

The professional Tours are not the heart and soul of golf; the average guy who loves the game, who finds it difficult but endures, is.  The average guy should not be subjected to things that make golf more difficult.  Amateur scores are not going down.
So let's just ignore the pros.  If they shoot 30-40 under par, so be it.  Forget about their sideshow; that's all it is.  It's not them that really matter to this great game we all love so much. 
And as many of you rant about technology and distance, you forget that the pros don't need to play by the rules promulgated by the USGA when playing their tournaments, and they have been pretty clear they will probably not follow any roll-back.  So you are wasting your breath.
I had a friend email me yesterday that he had just shot his age for the first time.  He was elated.  Who cares that it was on a 6000 yard course.  He's golf, not the pros.  We give them an elevated status they don't deserve.

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