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Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2018, 01:44:17 PM »
Marketing is the world we live in and worldwide marketing budgets for consumer goods/services has never been higher (including inflation).  Influencers, social media, and other non traditional means of marketing is taking hold as opposed to print and TV. The dollars have increased, because marketing as a science has been recently embraced to where it becomes a necessity and it isn't cheap.

Become familiar with these terms:

SEO - Search Engine Optimization
Big Data Analysis Methods
Etc.

Marketing has gotten much much better due to the scientific aspect of being able to predict cosumer behavior due to huge amounts of data. It is scary almost to see how human behavior can be manipulated by the change of something simple.  Even recently there was a 60 minute piece on how Trump won the election and there was a guy who tested facebook ads incessantly by changing just the color of a button in the ad and it got 50% more clicks.  Small thing, potentially big deal.

Golf marketing is becoming less dependent on the tour operators IMO.  There is so much information out there, that they are being shutout as what value do they bring, unless you don't have time to figure it out.  I remember I wanted to go to Scotland 20 years ago and I bought to do my research and had phone numbers of operators.  All that information is out there today on the net, thus you have things like online forums, such as this site, where you can find well informed opinions on things unavailable previously.

Point being a high end course won't be high end without a sufficient following, and in today's world the consumer opinion counts for alot (yelp for example). You may charge high prices, but it won't be sustainable despite any tour operators scewed opinion.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed! New
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2018, 01:52:51 PM »
Every other course is just trying to be.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 01:14:21 AM by Frank M »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2018, 05:20:51 PM »

Sean,


I think the problem P&N would not have happened had they stayed true to the old way of doing things namely running the club within the budget set by members fees and using the greenfee takings for nice to have extras. Instead many clubs turned the members into clients putting turnover before society.


Frank,


I agree fully that the top rate for greenfees is around the £100 mark


Jon


Jon

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed! New
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2018, 05:44:34 PM »
Glad to see there are others out there that agree with my cut-off rate.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 01:13:43 AM by Frank M »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2018, 04:57:47 AM »

My contested opinion has been that this current generation of minamilist golf, the second golden age, or whatever you want to call it, where golfers need to travel hours into the middle of nowhere to pay enormous sums of money to play golf, does nothing for the game overall. We are quick to criticize everything in golf that doesn’t “grow the game,” but then in the next breath everyone is hailing each of these golf courses as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Of course N&P isn’t a modern course but I’ve seen it change from a local, little known course when I first played it for 25 Euros into this marketed “travel” course part of a group of courses in a region everyone NEEDS to travel to. Seeing golfers travel elsewhere and pay hundreds of $’s to play on the moon probably didn’t help the situation.


Frank

Yes, I too have questioned this concept as essentially unsustainable.  Folks are worried about buying local to reduce carbon footprint and for golf we have a trend of building courses in places which are just a wide spot on the road and shipping in golfers. That said, golfers are on the move anyway, so who can blame developers for taking the concept to the next level? However, I don't think the model is going anywhere because there is plenty of money out there and golf attracts money.  The problem with N&P is it was hard to attract that money because of a lack of amenities at the club and surrounding area.  The club thought a new house would do the trick, but that was nowhere near enough.  The result was debt creating a situation where the course was priced out of the range of those who can't afford to play golf in far flung places at far flung prices.  Clubs need to figure out their market share and maximize it.  Its great if clubs can rely on overseas visitors to carry the load, but that is a relatively small number of clubs which are so lucky.  It takes a lot of time and likely investment, to move into more expensive markets unless the club is one of these wide spots on the road jobbies with all sorts of fanfare marketing or has history....you can't buy history.

Ciao   
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 05:07:00 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2018, 05:39:32 AM »
It is possible for a top quality golf course to cost WAY less than £100, even in a remote location.


https://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/green_fees


£55 per DAY.  In summer! As many rounds as you can fit in. And the club is thriving - in fact they now exploit their unbelievable value for money as their USP.

If only they'd build some dormy accommodation so that we don't have to venture into the godforsaken town..
;)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 05:41:47 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2018, 07:55:01 AM »
I think we must keep in mind that no matter what is happening to golf in the US, golf in GB & I is so much different with respect to members and costs.  My caddie at Ballybunion and Lahinch were club members which is something which would never happen in the US. Golf over there was meant to be a game that everyone could play and sometimes it worked out that the local course was world recognized and sometimes it wasn't but that was never the point of playing the game.  If the local course is too expensive for the residents then it simply won't work. 


It does seem odd to me that we are debating whether N & P is too expensive at the same time that Mike Keiser is trying to build a new course in Scotland which will no doubt cost at least 3 times what N & P charges.  Does anyone believe that the locals near that course are going to be able to afford to play it on any sort of regular basis? 

BCowan

Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2018, 08:13:12 AM »
The majority of courses in the US don't have caddies, so using that as measuring stick is fools errands.  Pebble and #2 cost $25 to play in the early 70's.  I believe that we are talking about going into debt to build a new house to chase big outside money, very similar to US building big Clubhouses and going belly up.  The party will end soon, history always repeats itself. 

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2018, 08:48:48 AM »

As I understand it, folks from Silloth town use the clubhouse regularly as they don't have many options elsewhere.  It seems to have both a dedicated membership and a dedicated visitor base.


WRT to lodging, Papa Shanley and I stayed at a local B&B owned by a member.  I'd recommend it.

It is possible for a top quality golf course to cost WAY less than £100, even in a remote location.


https://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/green_fees


£55 per DAY.  In summer! As many rounds as you can fit in. And the club is thriving - in fact they now exploit their unbelievable value for money as their USP.

If only they'd build some dormy accommodation so that we don't have to venture into the godforsaken town..
;)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2018, 12:14:36 PM »
Seamus McDonagh is a member of Narin and Portnoo Golf Club. He told the Donegal News yesterday it was unfortunate that things had escalated as far as they have.

"As an ordinary member, I don't understand how it has come to this," Mr McDonagh said.

"The club has a lot of bookings for 2018 and people from all over America and Europe will have been planning to come and play here. With the situation the way it is, they have to be saying, let's not take the chance."

Mr McDonagh said that in light of the discord, "not a penny" in membership fees had been drawn in for the year ahead. As a result, the club has run out of cash.

Mr McDonagh added that the situation involving the new owner was "about money."

He said that as far as he was aware there were no negotiations taking place at the moment to try and resolve the impasse.

"The landowner is getting part of the blame but there is a deal in place. It is what the new owner wants to add to the deal that is the problem. I do think there is a bit of blame on both sides."

"It is sad that it has come to this because most members just want to play golf," Mr McDonagh said.

Jon-

As different as our two private club models might be, there is one common denominator, it is "about money".  As the N & P member notes in the article, the new Irish owner of the club is willing to "forgive" the €1.7 lien in favor of the club and provide a licensing agreement that would "guarantee" its future.

We are not privy to that agreement or to the details of the negotiations with the lessor of the land on which all or parts of three holes are sited (does anyone know which holes are involved?  holes 4, 5, and 6 possibly?).   We do know that the club failed to meet its obligations and defaulted on a €1.7 Million loan owned by the so-called "vulture" fund. 

What is telling from the member's comments is that the blame for the closing is placed solely on the new owner and the lessor.   As he says, "It is sad that it has come to this because most members just want to play golf,".

And perhaps therein lies the major difference in the way we see the world.  We all "just want to play golf".  We just don't all have the same reflex regarding who should pay for it.

Apparently, the revenues generated by the €80 visitor fee when added to those paid by members weren't sufficient to cover obligations.  Some here have said that the €80 wasn't excessive.  The laws of Supply and Demand suggest otherwise.  Perhaps there isn't a price point where the club can carry such debt, and maybe the members just have to reconcile their desires with their ability and willingness to pay for fulfilling them.

Jerry,

Whatever Keiser builds over there, my bet is that it will be levels above N & P, and better located and amenitized.  Like Sean and Frank, I have reservations about the sustainability of ultra-expensive destination golf in remote locations, but it has become nearly impossible to build high quality courses near most population centers.  I do wonder what's going to happen to golf when my Baby Boomer generation hangs up the sticks.  Who is going to journey to N & P?  I think you are right, such courses will need to look directly to its members for survival.  And properly so, IMO.   

« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 12:18:51 PM by Lou_Duran »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2018, 12:40:31 PM »
If you’re in a remote location, and N&P is pretty remote even by Irish standards, you’d better be pretty damn good or special (or have a very good or special neighbouring course) to attract travelling folks in more than small numbers. If otherwise, it’s the locals who are the cake and any possible play by non-locals needs to be considered and budgeted as non-essential bonus icing only.
Nice course though, very nice actually, in a delightful part of the world, and I’m glad to have played it (about 4 yrs ago) but it’s not special enough to justify the green fee prices being quoted above given the remoteness of it’s location.
An unfortunate case of over-ambition which hopefully can resolve itself so that the locals can continue to enjoy some golf and the employees maintain their jobs.
Atb

« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 12:42:48 PM by Thomas Dai »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2018, 01:38:16 PM »

Lou,


I think we both agree it is about money but here in GB&I clubs traditionally have belonged to the membership and have a budget limited to the membership fees. P&N lost sight of this, over borrowed and have sold the club to someone else. Ergo, the members are no longer part of a owner membership and someone else is calling the shots. If they hadn't over extended their debt they would not have this problem.


Jerry,


I suspect that Coul Links will have a similar policy to Castle Stuart which at £60 for locals is affordable.


Jon

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2018, 02:43:18 PM »
I think you’re all off the mark (or more likely I’m not fully understanding your points). The €80 rack rate only applied to overseas visitors. All locals will have been members and I suspect “chasing the tourist buck” had very little to do with their debt.


Many other clubs (most?) are operating in debt in Ireland. They possibly all over extended themselves with new clubhouses and The Celtic Tiger but few of them over extended themselves due to increasing green fees.


The trouble in this case has arisen because Ulster Bank sold their debts to a vulture fund who needed immediate repayment or sale. A lot of people aren’t very happy with Ulster Bank.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2018, 02:59:09 PM »


The trouble in this case has arisen because Ulster Bank sold their debts to a vulture fund who needed immediate repayment or sale. A lot of people aren’t very happy with Ulster Bank.


So the vulture fund end up owning a golf course (minus three holes) and a clubhouse for which they will have paid a few cents in the Euro...




... I imagine that N&P will be on the market very soon.






« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 03:01:17 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2018, 04:39:02 PM »
The trouble in this case has arisen because Ulster Bank sold their debts to a vulture fund who needed immediate repayment or sale. A lot of people aren’t very happy with Ulster Bank.


There must be more to it than that.  The club must have not been meeting its debt obligation and/or the debt was worth more than the value of the asset.  The consequence is the vulture fund buying a weak loan (Ulster Bank would by law have to keep weak loans on their books to a minimum).  In truth, the club is lucky the vulture fund sold the debt which is why I think the course will re-open.  The cause of all this is poor financial management by the club even if it was well intentioned.  There is no point in poking fingers elsewhere.  It would be interesting to know how much was paid on the Euro for the debt.  My guess is when the course re-opens the new owner will be looking to create something which commands more than 80 Euro a round!


Ciao
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 06:32:19 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2018, 04:48:11 PM »
I wonder which committee member(s) agreed and signed the original loan documents, who promoted the idea of the new clubhouse and course extension and whether the clubs formal regulations were correctly followed prior to agreeing the loans etc. Might be some bad blood lingering in the area. Not quite horses heads in beds but I’m sure you get the drift.
Atb

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2018, 06:48:01 PM »
David Thomas,

Hindsight is always 20/20.  Nothing about N & P suggested extravagance.  It could be simply a case of the eyes being bigger than the stomach.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/cerberus-steps-up-action-against-mortgage-holders-in-arrears-1.3193710

Sean- I would not doubt that the new Irish owner is into the debt at around 30% of face value.  If the "vulture fund" is properly casted as a dark force of greed, perhaps the new guy can come out the angel.  At €80/round- and I am sure that many GB&I golfers play for less- I don't think that the course and its location are good enough to ride the coattails of the big boys.  My bet is that N & P will be up an running soon.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2018, 07:17:13 PM »
Jon: Have you looked at the Oregon resident rate for Bandon Dunes?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2018, 07:19:59 PM »
Sean- I would not doubt that the new Irish owner is into the debt at around 30% of face value.  If the "vulture fund" is properly casted as a dark force of greed, perhaps the new guy can come out the angel.  At €80/round- and I am sure that many GB&I golfers play for less- I don't think that the course and its location are good enough to ride the coattails of the big boys.  My bet is that N & P will be up an running soon.

Who says course changes aren't in the wind?  There is a ton of room for improvement. And if what you say is true, buying the current place for 540,000 Euros and paying for some extra work could result in the bargain of the century for a potentially very high quality product. I will be shocked if the new owner has the idea to keep N&P a sleepy member club/hidden gem. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 07:33:59 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2018, 07:02:16 AM »
I was thinking about this thread and it got me to wonder how many really good holes must a course have to be considered as really good?  I am not one to remember every hole on a course, especially when it is one of about 15 that we played on a trip, but my recollection was that N & P had some really good holes, especially up into the dunes, and to me it was a really good course which was certainly worth playing.  We played Cruit Island in the afternoon and it was quite a good day which I would highly recommend to those traveling anywhere nearby.  Perhaps it gets back to the Doak scale and the difference between a 6 and a 7.  So does N & P have enough good holes to be considered a Doak 7? Let's say a course has 6 really good and memorable holes - is it enough to be considered for a Doak 7? To me it has enough really good holes to be a 7 and add in Cruit Island and the combination is certainly a 7.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2018, 07:41:44 AM »
Jerry

I think N&P is a very solid 6.  There are a few holes which for me are All-Ireland candidates...5, 8 & 17....quite a high number in truth.  Plus 9 & 10 are very good holes.  My issue is not with the best holes...its the worst holes.  I don't think any of the holes over flatish land are even close to memorable and that drags down the fun factor quite a bit...especially as there are two stretches of dullness.  The thing which really gets me is these holes could be good and it would completely change the nature of the design. Golf courses are the aggregate of what is in the ground...not the cherry picked best holes. Bottom line...the land should yield a better course....and I think there is a chance this may happen.

I am happy to pay far more than 50 Euros for a round...just not at N&P. For me its a filler game, not the reason to be in the area. Unfortunately, N&P is fairly isolated so unless one is high on Cruit then...well you get it.

Ciao   
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 05:09:52 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2018, 07:48:48 AM »
Jerry,
I also played Cruit Island and N&P in the same day, but in the opposite order from you. For 18 holes at each, I spent about $140 total in golf that day. And I got to see views like these. Some people (myself included) might be willing to pay a bit extra for this sort of thing. I don't think the N&P fee was too large that it drove foreign tourists away, nor do I think that a smaller fee would have attracted droves more. I think their location somewhat limits how many people they can get to come visit, not the green fee structure.

I would happily fork over $100 to play there again. I agree with Sean about the limitations, but I value the highs a bit more.

DSC02947 by john mayhugh, on Flickr

DSC03024 by john mayhugh, on Flickr

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2018, 09:28:17 AM »
Comparing green fees across all clubs without considering their situation is pointless.



If someone wants to set themselves a limit of $100 or $150 and refuse to pay more for a green fee, that's up to them.  But the idea that every course should keep its fees less than that or be subject to the wrath of those demanding "affordability" is ridiculous.


As John Mayhugh says, if a course is in a remote location and they understand that will keep many people from coming, but the people who come are not price-sensitive, then setting a high green fee is the rational choice, so that the 5000 visitor rounds they do will actually support the place.  Cutting the price in half will not double the number of visitors to a place like Narin & Portnoo; getting there is the limiting factor.


Craig Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2018, 09:40:11 AM »
Looks like a cool course

BCowan

Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2018, 09:51:25 AM »


If someone wants to set themselves a limit of $100 or $150 and refuse to pay more for a green fee, that's up to them.  But the idea that every course should keep its fees less than that or be subject to the wrath of those demanding "affordability" is ridiculous.


As John Mayhugh says, if a course is in a remote location and they understand that will keep many people from coming, but the people who come are not price-sensitive, then setting a high green fee is the rational choice, so that the 5000 visitor rounds they do will actually support the place.  Cutting the price in half will not double the number of visitors to a place like Narin & Portnoo; getting there is the limiting factor.




If $150 green fees is affordability, that is a new one.  ''Demanding'', no one is demanding.  Some are stating we have sense not to pay more then $150.  When going across the pond, I'm trying to get away from Lemings, not find them.  I'd have no problem spending $100 for a round here, i don't have to pay $100 for a caddie there!  When you say ''high price'' that is vague, what is high?  Instead of 5,000 rounds, why not have continued selling of the place as a gem and worthy of a long trip for a play.  "Take the Long Way Home''.  You always make ''Selling'' as a bad thing. ''Death of a Salesmen'' it comes across.  Hopefully with the CG and other similar items these courses can get promoted as a great experience. 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 10:31:41 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »