[Tim Martin]

The 1st hole at Ardsley CC in Westchester County NY is one of the strangest starters I can think of. A medium iron blind over a hill with a big elevation drop making a 350 hole play quite a bit shorter and a scoring iron into the green. Lots of fun and interesting holes to follow but when you walk off the green you are scratching your head.

[Mark Pearce]

It would appear from the Scotland's Best Par 3s thread that 11 at Askernish should be added to this list.

Absolutely.  Maybe 16th also!

Absolutely.  An utterly bonkers hole.  Though whether brilliant bonkers or dreadful bonkers is a personal choice.  I love it.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

There are two holes that I rather enjoy in the Philly area that are also polarizing: No. 9 at Philmont North and No. 18 at Stonewall North (already mentioned).

Philmont North's ninth hole (574 yards, par-5) features a downhill drive and uphill layups and approach shots. From the back tee box, one would need nearly a 260-yard drive (based on a Google Earth measurement) for an unobstructed lay-up as trees line both sides of the fairway. From the next tee box up, a more manageable drive of 225 is needed. However, distance and a fairway is not the only requirement off the tee, as the left side of the fairway is much preferred for a better angle on the second shot. The closer one gets to the green, the fairway and ground cants severely from left to right. Missing the green left or right is no bargain either! I recall the green being quite good. To view The Bausch Collection's photos of No. 18, follow this URL and navigate through the gallery: http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PhilmontNorth/pages/page_40.html

Stonewall North's 18th hole (495 yards, par 5) features two natural water hazards that splits the fairway in two places, requiring one to contemplate their shot prior to hitting, especially when the course is firm and fast. From the back tee box, one has nearly 320 yards prior to running out of fairway on the drive, and from the next box up, nearly 280 yards, however, many may not wish to risk finishing anywhere near the hazard and lay back a bit. The second hazard is approximately 60 yards from the center of the green, which creates a "risk-reward" dilemma for the golfer contemplating a lay-up or to go for the green in two shots. While the hole is relatively straight, the left side of the fairway is ideal as it generally presents a better angle to the green. To view The Bausch Collection's photos of No. 9, follow this URL and navigate through the gallery: http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StonewallNorth/pages/page_107.html


As I mentioned, I personally enjoy these two holes (and really love the courses as a whole), but have heard rumblings from others that do not enjoy them as much.

[Joe Bausch]

The most polarizing hole I've personally experienced is #2 at Cabot Cliffs. I've played it with my traveling group about ten times and there is no other hole that inspires such division between the guys who love its dramatic use of the natural land forms, and the guys who think that trait is exactly why it's too contrived or ridiculous for a golf course.

You’ve chosen a good one, Mark.


Photos for those interested:


http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/CabotCliffs/pages/page_10.html?

[V. Kmetz]

The 1st hole at Ardsley CC in Westchester County NY is one of the strangest starters I can think of. A medium iron blind over a hill with a big elevation drop making a 350 hole play quite a bit shorter and a scoring iron into the green. Lots of fun and interesting holes to follow but when you walk off the green you are scratching your head.

Acceptable in a match...but my personal choice for the worst hole I've ever seen... While 2 - 6 is kind of a pleasing stretch, Ardsley perennially draws ire, with good reason. 


cheers   vk

[Carl Rogers]

Late to the thread.  4th Mid Pines, I think it is great! Any number of holes on Stantz courses, like no. 11 at Royal New Kent.

[Ira Fishman]

Carl,


Mid Pines 4 is one of the holes that prompted me to start the thread.  I think very highly of it too.  And the thread debating the tree is one of the classics on GCA.com.


Ira

[Sean_A]

Strange...I wouldn't have thought tthere would be any truck about MP's 4th.  The strategy is quite clear...safety left, aggression right.  What is to hate?  For what its worth, I think its the best hole on the course and the only one I would say is truly great.

Ciao

[Steve_Lovett]

Who said that 16 at Dornoch is a polarizing hole? Why would it be disliked?

[Marty Bonnar]

Just to say ‘Polararizing’ has been driving this OCD chap mental!
Love,
F.

[Dan Boerger]

Tim - Good call. I have never played Ardsley, but have spent a good bit of time there for meetings (related to Curling). I recall watching group after group tee off on #1 with those mid irons driving their balls into what seemed to be a never ending drop off from my vantage point.

[Tim Martin]

Tim - Good call. I have never played Ardsley, but have spent a good bit of time there for meetings (related to Curling). I recall watching group after group tee off on #1 with those mid irons driving their balls into what seemed to be a never ending drop off from my vantage point.

Dan-As V. Kmetz notes the stretch that follows is a good one but that hole is a head scratcher. It’s interesting to note that Willie Dunn and Alister MacKenzie were both involved early in the club’s history although I don’t know how much is left after both RTJ and Ken Dye put their stamp on it. That said I can’t imagine there are many better spots for any type of gathering with the grandiose clubhouse and unforgettable views of the Hudson.

[V. Kmetz]

Tim - Good call. I have never played Ardsley, but have spent a good bit of time there for meetings (related to Curling). I recall watching group after group tee off on #1 with those mid irons driving their balls into what seemed to be a never ending drop off from my vantage point.

LoL... that's what it feels like to the golfer too... a lemming marching off the cliff.

Dan-I don’t know how much is left after both RTJ and Ken Dye put their stamp on it. 



Ken Dye, huh?  That so figures.

[Michael J. Moss]

I am defining a “polarizing hole” as one where admirers and detractors are roughly split. But also a hole where passions tend to run hot.
 
Tom Doak went right after the par-3 ninth at Kingsley as an example of one he doesn’t care for. And truthfully, it is a little bastard of a hole, but after two times playing it (and carrying a 500 batting average as a result) I think it’s brilliant! Isn't having one or two polarizing holes an important ingredient to be included in any good design.

That's why I love John Law’s quote provided by Jeff Mingay on the first page:

“All of the really great holes of the world involve a contest of wits, a contest of risk, and hover on the brink of the Heretical Precipice.”

I was out for dinner last night with Sunningdale CC Green Superintendent Sean Cain and the great Neil Regan and I brought up this thread. As a Sunningdale golfer, our case study was Mike DeVries’ 300 – 340 yard par-4 fifth. When completed, our membership was close to hanging the then Green Chairman who allowed this totally unfair hole to be built (…and btw, I was that Green Chairman!). That was nine years ago.
 
Today, our golfers have embraced the challenges involved on that particular hole and have refocused their ire to our much newer 16th, a wild (and gorgeous!) par-5 where the third shot – typically in the 95-125 yard range -- is quite often played off a downhill lie to an elevated green. For the rank and file, that shot is a demanding one. This hole, built totally from scratch by Mike, is now one season old, and I do expect the noise level to gradually subside as was the case with our fifth, but it has sent my brain spinning. And here’s something that has dawned on me:

If Mike had had the ability to move Augusta National’s 15th hole faithfully and in its entirety to Sunningdale – and without telling our membership where it came from  – I think they would absolutely hate it! When you think about it...a downhill shot to a narrow domed green with water in front and with some water also behind: 25% of our golfers wouldn't be able to make a score. Call it the Augusta National exemption, which means anywhere else the 15th at ANGC falls under the “polarizing hole” label. (And while I'm at it, throw in the 12th as well!)
 
Two brilliant holes that approach the “Heretical Precipice" is what makes Augusta National great.

[Tim Martin]

Wannamoisett #2 is a par four measuring 505 from the back tees and 460 from the members tees. The drive is straight away and requires a forced carry over a creek which fronts the green on the approach. The green slopes back to front as does the grade back to the creek from the green. Regardless that I can’t hit it out of my shadow   I have never had a go at the green in two and the lay up in front of the creek requires a 100 yard third shot for an up and down par. It would be a far better half par hole as a par 5 for most players and they could keep it as a par 4 for the Northeast Amateur and the guys that want to play it tipped out. A similar length hole where par can be either 4 or 5 depending on which set of tees you play is Newport CC giving the average player a “gentle handshake” to start the round.

[Carl Rogers]

ANGC exception: idea is exactly correct.  Context is all.  However, ANGC exists only for the top 100 in the world.

[Marty Bonnar]

Just to say ‘Polararizing’ has been driving this OCD chap mental!
Love,
F.

Thank you, sir.
I will sleep better tonight!
Cheers,
F.

[Ira Fishman]

Just to say ‘Polararizing’ has been driving this OCD chap mental!
Love,
F.

Thank you, sir.
I will sleep better tonight!
Cheers,
F.

Bears fans need to respect each other.


Ira

[Marty Bonnar]

GSH and Sweetness approve!
V best,
F.

[Michael J. Moss]

ANGC exception: idea is exactly correct.  Context is all.  However, ANGC exists only for the top 100 in the world.

Carl,
“Augusta National exists only for the top 100 in the world.” Can you say the same for the Old Course or Merion? Great architecture appeals to all levels of play. The question I posed here is does the occasional polarizing hole add or diminish the esteem in which a course is held?


The 12th and 15th at AGNGC are universally praised. But I think most golfers, if they didn’t know their provenance, would hate them!

[Jim Nugent]

The 12th and 15th at AGNGC are universally praised. But I think most golfers, if they didn’t know their provenance, would hate them!

15 looks damn hard for average golfers.  The original version was much more forgiving, because it had a small creek instead of pond in front of the green, and you could run your ball onto the putting surface.  I'm pretty sure that's what Sarazen did for his double eagle. 

I'm surprised to hear you say most golfers would hate 12.  Is it now much harder than when it first opened?  Mac designed the entire course to be playable for all levels of golfers.  If it's really difficult, either he greatly missed the boat, or ANGC has made the hole a lot harder. 

[Michael J. Moss]

Jim, i was too strong. I’ll amend... 12 and 15 would have passionate defenders but also critics. Holes where a quarter of club members can’t make a score are polarizing.

[Jeff Schley]

Jim, i was too strong. I’ll amend... 12 and 15 would have passionate defenders but also critics. Holes where a quarter of club members can’t make a score are polarizing.

You mean the water hazard obviously.  Ask Spieth about 12 under pressure.  I don't think they are bad holes for amateurs, I think 15 would tougher for an amateur because if you are playing for the back and your drive is left you have a tough layup shot over the trees. Also if you hit it for a layup you may still have to hit off a downslope to a green with water in front and behind.  Keep in mind they take out a Gillette razor usually to trim the fringe/rough around the hole. We have seen pros hit the backside and slingshot into the water behind.  15 definitely tougher for me as an amateur IMO.

[Carl Rogers]

Do ANGC club members care if they lose 4 balls at 12 & 15? I say not.


If they are at another club, and lost 4 balls on hole, they would howl.  That is what I was trying to convey in my use of the word "context".


Likewise, when arriving at the first tee at Tobacco Road, the golfer must realize they are in a unique golfing environment and the "rules" of the typical golf environment do not apply.

[Jon Wiggett]

Carl,


I think ANGC gets away with such things because it is the quirk of the course and the extreme divergence in result for a minor difference in where the ball lands as apposed to where it can end up that makes the course (& the Masters) such interesting viewing. I think you are correct that at almost any other course  the players would complain bitterly about it where as at ANGC they are told to 'buck up'.


It is a shame people do not see this in regards to other courses.

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