[Ira Fishman]

Of the courses I have played, I can remember the following holes generating sharp, deeply felt divisions on this site:


14th at Bandon Trails
5th at Lahinch
4th at Mid Pines
18th at CPC


What are some others?  Are there common elements that provoke such pronounced divides.


Ira


PS The concept of The Bucks Club does not count.

[Peter Flory]

I didn't notice that there was any controversy re: the 4th at Mid Pines here.  I did witness a playing partner in a tournament have a complete meltdown on that hole though, so I guess it does have unusual danger associated with it. 


With the 18th at CPC, I was looking at it the other day and wondering how great it could be if they chopped down some of the trees... though I understand their inability to do that. 


For your list, I'd point out a few holes at Erin Hills: #2, maybe #9, and the old Dell hole that was erased. 

[Jon McSweeny]

Are there common elements that provoke such pronounced divides.

I've only played the first hole on your list, but isn't an element common to those holes the fact that you can easily put up some big numbers on them? And do so without hitting particularly poor shots?

If you're looking for a pronounced divide, you'll need some people to really dislike the hole. It may be that it's tough to really dislike a hole if you know you'll never make double on it.

[Mark Fedeli]

The most polarizing hole I've personally experienced is #2 at Cabot Cliffs. I've played it with my traveling group about ten times and there is no other hole that inspires such division between the guys who love its dramatic use of the natural land forms, and the guys who think that trait is exactly why it's too contrived or ridiculous for a golf course.

[Thomas Dai]

The 15th at Cruden Bay and the 10th at St Enodoc come to mind.

Atb

[Kalen Braley]

It might be polarizing just to say this...


But if someone tried to build something like 17 at TOC today, they'd likely be run out of the industry....

[Zack Molnar]

9 at Kingsley seems to be pretty divisive.


I think "do or die" type holes are generally pretty divisive. These are holes that dont have many options, and require a certain shot be played or it is difficult to complete. Sawgrass 17 would fall into this category for me.

[Tom_Doak]

15 at Kingsley is divisive, too.  (I like it. Don't like 9.)


18 at Cypress Point is not that divisive. (Same for the 9th at The Old Course.)  Nobody thinks it's great; some just don't think it should be dismissed as awful, and half of those people are just avoiding saying anything negative about the course.  Similarly, I think many big name architects get a pass on this as people are reluctant to go too far out on a limb criticizing one of their holes.


I can't even think of what is the most divisive hole I have built.  I'm curious to hear nominations.

[Jeff Schley]

#7 at Pebble Beach...... Just ask Ian Polter 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFDBlzlna_Y

[Tim Martin]

18 Yale
10 Shinnecock
1 Oakmont

[Matthew Essig]

17 at TPC Sawgrass?

[Garland Bayley]

13 and 15 at Strandhill.
10 at St. Enodoc
16,17,18 at Pennard

[Sean_A]

16 Dornoch...dislike
18 Reddish Vale...dislike
11 Rye...like
1 Machrishanish...amazingly enough...like
5 Painswick...dislike
12 Castle Stuart...dislike
18 Castle Course...like
17 Dormie Club...ok, nothing special
10 Trump Aberdeen...like

There aren't that many holes I can think which ring alarm bells.  The one course which has me confounded is the polarizing poster boy, Tobacco Road, but I don't recall any specific holes which split opinion.

I didn't realize Pennard's 16th was polarizing, but I guess since they want to(or already did) alter the green then I spose it must be.  I hope the work is never carried out...big mistake to dumb down an outlandish green.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

16 Dornoch...dislike
18 Reddish Vale...dislike
11 Rye...like
1 Machrishanish...amazingly enough...like
5 Painswick...dislike
12 Castle Stuart...dislike
18 Castle Course...like
17 Dormie Club...ok, nothing special
10 Trump Aberdeen...like

There aren't that many holes I can think which ring alarm bells.  The one course which has me confounded is the polarizing poster boy, Tobacco Road, but I don't recall any specific holes which split opinion.

I didn't realize Pennard's 16th was polarizing, but I guess since they want to(or already did) alter the green then I spose it must be.  I hope the work is never carried out...big mistake to dumb down an outlandish green.

Ciao

11th at Rye - like?? I thought it was the worse and most un-links like hole on what is a super course and it looks more suited to Florida than Rye. I guess we differ in opinions 

[Jud_T]

Tom,


While it's one of my personal favorites, I would think Pac Dunes #6 would be fairly divisive.  I can imagine good players making a 6 on a short 4 walking off with steam coming out of their ears.  Of course, this just makes me like the hole even more...


Honorable Mention- Lost Dunes #4

[Brian Finn]

#14 and #15 at Dormie Club have been the subject of much debate here over the past several years.  I happen to think both are very good holes, but many seem to think otherwise.

[BCowan]

15 at Kingsley is divisive, too.  (I like it. Don't like 9.)

I agree with Kingsley assessment.


I'll add,


5th at Greywalls
9th at Indianwood (old)
2nd at Holston Hills (tree)

[V. Kmetz]

Does polarizing mean there's a 50/50 debate between whether a particular hole is good, enjoyable, reasonably playable... and another 50% that thinks it stinks, or doesn't belong?


Or is it a controversy regarding a hole (considered in a vacuum) which violates conventions, is gimmicky, penal or otherwise a poor "model" of a golf hole?


If it's the latter, wouldn't the 6th at Riviera qualify?


I'd love to see some pictures/explanations of these polarizing ones, I personally have no context for 90% of them.


cheers   vk

[Sean_A]

16 Dornoch...dislike
18 Reddish Vale...dislike
11 Rye...like
1 Machrishanish...amazingly enough...like
5 Painswick...dislike
12 Castle Stuart...dislike
18 Castle Course...like
17 Dormie Club...ok, nothing special
10 Trump Aberdeen...like

There aren't that many holes I can think which ring alarm bells.  The one course which has me confounded is the polarizing poster boy, Tobacco Road, but I don't recall any specific holes which split opinion.

I didn't realize Pennard's 16th was polarizing, but I guess since they want to(or already did) alter the green then I spose it must be.  I hope the work is never carried out...big mistake to dumb down an outlandish green.

Ciao

11th at Rye - like?? I thought it was the worse and most un-links like hole on what is a super course and it looks more suited to Florida than Rye. I guess we differ in opinions 

Other than the ugly hazard, what is the issue with a classic cape style hole?  1 Machrihanish and 2 North Berwick are essentially the same hole...though I think the mounding at NB makes it the best of the three. 

Ciao

[Jeff_Mingay]

This thread/discussion reminds me of a great quote from John Low:


All of the really great holes of the world involve a contest of wits, a contest of risk, and hover on the brink of the Heretical Precipice.

[Jeff_Brauer]

At one time, I think Tom Doak posited that the 17th at Crystal Downs was very controversial for its side slopes, perhaps similar to 14 at BT.  That said, I liked it, and played with Tom, Darius Oliver and Redanman, and all of us liked it, so this comment is just here say.


TD also mentioned the Maxwell inspired reversed tier green, with the back left lower than the front, and even the short 11th which is really shallow and which I had to putt away from the hole to get from the upper to lower deck.  My only point in mentioning those is that most competitive golfers seem to dislike any hole where you can fire at the pin if you dare, and can't make a direct recovery from anywhere around the green.


As to VKmetz question, I think the latter is the correct interpretation of this thread, but could be wrong.


I can't see PD 6 as being controversial or polarizing, just demanding to get the right angle.

[Ira Fishman]

VK and Jeff,


Both definitions.  An inclusive question about holes that cause pronounced (and perhaps heated) differences of opinion for whatever reason.  Probably what you term "gimmicky" will provoke more holes of controversy.  But one person's gimmicky is another person's stroke of genius.  I love Lahinch 5; many people cannot abide it.


And I should have added Pasatiempo 8 to my original list.


Ira

[Dan Kelly]

I can't even think of what is the most divisive hole I have built.  I'm curious to hear nominations.

Tom --


I've played only two of your courses: Ballyneal and Dismal Red.


Not sure that either of these would be polarizing -- but they might be (particularly from a way-back tee)!


Ballyneal 16


Dismal Red 18


Dan

[Dan Gallaway]

Any par 3 at Dismal-White?  (5 or 10)

[Jeff Schley]

Not for it being unfair or tricked up, but for where the hole is in it's order.  #1 at Augusta National

Many players say this is the hardest opening hole they play and very underrated since TV coverage on the front 9 started in the last 10 years or so.  Very tough hole and combine that with your opening tee shot at the Masters and that can't help.

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