A Macdonald Design That's Been "Hiding"

« **on:** January 30, 2018, 07:02:04 PM »

I believe that Morris County Club, long though to be a Raynor, is actually a Charles Blair Macdonald design. Please click on the link.

(No animals were harmed and no money made in the creation of this blog piece.)

http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/uncategorized/2070/morris-county-golf-club-long-thought-to-be-a-raynor-design-likely-a-macdonald-layout

Anthony

« **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2018, 07:02:56 PM »

Great job, Anthony. Thanks for sharing.

« **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2018, 07:40:03 PM »

@Anthony

Do you consider MacDonald a consultant on Raynor's North Shore?

« **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2018, 09:21:18 PM »

Steve:

From what I have in the way of newspaper clippings, and I haven't looked in a while, I would say no. I do, though, have a sneaking suspicion that Macdonald had a hand in Westhampton, long considered Raynor's first solo design.

Best,

Anthony

« **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2018, 10:00:40 PM »

@ Anthony

From my notes of the annual meeting of the club as recorded in the minutes of the Harmonie Club on March 13, 1916 prior to the opening of the course:

" The results are the product of of the deep thought of Robert White, our greens expert; Raynor, the leading golf architect in the USA;
Charles B. MacDonald, the recognized authority among amateurs on golf course construction and the well considered work of our Greens Committee."

« **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2018, 10:12:43 PM »

Tony,
Fabulous article and great research. Aspects of Morris County's scale and interior contours remind me of Macdonald's work,

especially the bold greens at 9 and 17

The essay references a "320 yard seventh ". I'm wondering if this could be the 5th or 6th. I caddied there long ago (Truman was president) but I think the rollercoaster 7th was around 450-455 yards.
thanks for sharing 1

« **Reply #6 on:** January 30, 2018, 10:54:56 PM »

Anthony:

Your quote from the 1918 article is slightly off, as you make it sound like it was CBM that "took special care." In the article it is clear that this language referred to the actions of the club itself, not "he." It is a subtle distinction, but in this age of respecting the truth we might as well clarify it.

I'd also note that CBM had a bit of involvement with the club back in 1898, when he along with a slew of other experts assisted in perfecting the course. I think this adds a bit of color as to why he would have such a personal involvement with this particular project.

As for the Ron Forse analysis as to what could or could not be CBM v. Raynor, I really don't find any of it too convincing. This is not to say I don't think CBM was involved here, just that picking out a few features isn't enough to be conclusive one way or another.

Sven

« **Reply #7 on:** January 30, 2018, 11:14:53 PM »

Steve:

Interesting, what is the Harmonie Club? Can I get a scan of the that quote?

Sven: I'll go back and reread the quote. I find Ron's thoughts extremely convincing. The wavy line that he thinks is indicative of a Macdonald green edge is a feature I've never seen on a Raynor golf course. I didn't mention it in the article, but Ron and I also agreed that the Double Plateau at Morris County is much more along the lines of a Macdonald Double Plateau, than ones Raynor produced especially on courses where it seems Macdonald had no involvement.

« **Reply #8 on:** January 30, 2018, 11:15:27 PM »

Tony,
Another great find! I think this is the first time I have seen MacDonald affiliated with a Jersey course.

« **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2018, 11:18:41 PM »

Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on January 30, 2018, 11:14:53 PM

Steve:

Interesting, what is the Harmonie Club? Can I get a scan of the that quote?

Sven: I'll go back and reread the quote. I find Ron's thoughts extremely convincing. The wavy line that he thinks is indicative of a Macdonald green edge is a feature I've never seen on a Raynor golf course. I didn't mention it in the article, but Ron and I also agreed that the Double Plateau at Morris County is much more along the lines of a Macdonald Double Plateau, than ones Raynor produced especially on courses where it seems Macdonald had no involvement.

Harmonie Club was the club acquired the Emmet golf course from Glenwood Country Club. Harmonie Club became North Shore.

« **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2018, 11:23:45 PM »

Thanks Nigel, I was confused. I thought it was a reference to Morristown.

Would love to see more of the Harmonie meeting notes.

« **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2018, 11:34:59 PM »

@ Anthony

The original Harmonie Club records can be found in the NY Historical Society.

I took notes which I can fax to you. Send me a private message with your fax#.

Steve

« **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2018, 11:48:15 PM »

Anthony:

With respect to the wavy lines, what vintage of the course is Forse looking at to make that determination? If it isn't the post-1918 version (you seem to suggest the aerials he was looking at were from much later), this feature could simply be a factor of maintenance.

For the double plateau and other features, if Raynor had built every course exactly the same, I'd be a bit more convinced. 1916-18 is fairly early in Raynor's solo career, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if a hole he built resembled the style that would be built by his mentor. And again to be clear, I'm not saying CBM was involved at Morris County, just that Forse's analysis doesn't amount to anything I'd consider dispositive.

As an aside, Forse still maintains CC of Orlando is a Ross. The evidence is clear it was a Bendelow. Is there something on the ground there that convinced him to disregard the contemporaneous evidence?

Sven

« **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2018, 12:02:03 AM »

Sven:

The lines Ron was looking at are on the ground and if they are caused by maintenance then I'd be shocked. Having worked on maintenance crews I can't see how that could happen. I also don't recall seeing them on any other designs. They appear to be a repeated intentional feature.

The Double Plateau is my theory. I think there are two Double Plateau's Raynor designed, those on courses early in his career where Macdonald is known to or suspected to have input or influence such as Shoreacres, Blind Brook and MCC, and those layouts that appear to be genuinely Raynor solo efforts beginning with Mountain Lake.

I know nothing about CC Orlando so I can't comment. You need to take that up with Ron.

« **Reply #14 on:** January 31, 2018, 08:42:29 AM »

Anthony: Nice Blog!. I enjoyed reading it but.... I have to disagree with the wavy lines ... The right side #8 at Fishers is pretty wavy!

« **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2018, 09:48:53 AM »

I agree Donnie, the 8th has similar characteristics.

I wish I had a good photo to show what Ron was talking about. Maybe he has a photo.

Tony

« **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2018, 10:11:00 AM »

Joe Bausch found and posted several articles on this subject a number of years ago... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45130.msg990433.html#msg990433. I can't tell if they are the same as those posted by Anthony since they can no longer be accessed. Hopefully Joe sees this thread and chimes in.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2018, 10:22:26 AM »

Quote from: Anthony Pioppi on January 31, 2018, 09:48:53 AM

I agree Donnie, the 8th has similar characteristics.

I wish I had a good photo to show what Ron was talking about. Maybe he has a photo.

Tony

The biggest difference I have found between Raynor and Macdonald greens complexes, although subtle to most, is the transition from green surface to bunker face. On Macdonald's complexes the transitions are wider and more rounded before falling off to the steep bunker face.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2018, 10:42:46 AM »

Quote from: Donnie Beck on January 31, 2018, 10:22:26 AM

The biggest difference I have found between Raynor and Macdonald greens complexes, although subtle to most, is the transition from green surface to bunker face. On Macdonald's complexes the transitions are wider and more rounded before falling off to the steep bunker face.

Donnie:

That's a good observation, but which courses do you base that observation on?

For example, it's true of Shoreacres v. Chicago Golf ... but, Raynor built the current version of Chicago Golf without any real input from CBM.

Certainly, there are also plenty of examples where all the bunkers have been rebuilt by now and greens "expanded out to the edge," perhaps beyond where they once were.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2018, 11:27:30 AM »

Quote from: Tom_Doak on January 31, 2018, 10:42:46 AM

Quote from: Donnie Beck on January 31, 2018, 10:22:26 AM

The biggest difference I have found between Raynor and Macdonald greens complexes, although subtle to most, is the transition from green surface to bunker face. On Macdonald's complexes the transitions are wider and more rounded before falling off to the steep bunker face.

Donnie:

That's a good observation, but which courses do you base that observation on?

For example, it's true of Shoreacres v. Chicago Golf ... but, Raynor built the current version of Chicago Golf without any real input from CBM.

Certainly, there are also plenty of examples where all the bunkers have been rebuilt by now and greens "expanded out to the edge," perhaps beyond where they once were.

Tom,

What I am describing has nothing to do with current greens cuts, but rather the point where the (green/collar no matter what height it is cut at ) transitions into the bunker face. I base my observations primarily on the courses I am most familiar with and I know remain untouched NGLA, Yale and of course Fishers but have seen similar observations at many others. I don't like to criticize others work in public but this is the one area on some well received renovations that I feel the architects have missed the mark. In some cases very badly.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2018, 01:07:39 PM »

Here is a photo of the 17th green from a September 1922 Golf Illustrated advertisement:

Cornish and Whitten mention both Hal Purdy and Rees Jones restoring the course throughout the years.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2018, 07:04:24 PM »

Awesome photo Bret!

« **Reply #22 on:** January 31, 2018, 07:35:27 PM »

The photo Bret posted is from a 1922 Carter's Seed magazine ad so it could have been taken in 1921 or earlier. It was shot no more than 4 years after Morris County opened. The left bunker is the one to me that sticks at as extremely un-Raynor like. Before you lose your mind and jump to conclusions, I'm not saying it isn't a Raynor bunker, I'm saying it is not indicative of the usual Raynor greenside bunker, especially on a hole base on the Eden template.

« **Reply #23 on:** January 31, 2018, 08:16:05 PM »

Anthony:

Its probably not the best photo to compare, but the bunker in the Morris County photo looks a lot like the one on the left in this photo of Fishers. I'll hunt around to see if I can find some others for comparison.

Sven

April 1928 Golf Illustrated -

« **Reply #24 on:** January 31, 2018, 08:25:04 PM »

Here is another article (not mentioned in Tony's blog or the previous thread) discussing C.B. Macdonald at Morris County Golf Club

The Brooklyn Daily Eagle-January 29, 1916

News:

ANTHONYPIOPPI

MCirba

Steve_ Shaffer

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Steve_ Shaffer

mark chalfant

Sven Nilsen

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Nigel Islam

Nigel Islam

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Steve_ Shaffer

Sven Nilsen

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Donnie Beck

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Ed Oden

Donnie Beck

Tom_Doak

Donnie Beck

Bret Lawrence

Jaeger Kovich

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Sven Nilsen

Bret Lawrence

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