[Sven Nilsen]

Here's another from a couple of weeks earlier noting Raynor would construct the course:

Jan. 13, 1916 Courier-News -



So everyone can see them, here are the articles referenced in Anthony's article:

Nov. 23, 1916 New York Evening Post -



Dec. 11, 1918 New York Tribune -



And another additional article discussing the proposed new course.

Aug. 25, 1918 New York Tribune -

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ransom H. Thomas and Wynant D.Vanderpool both worked their way through the hierarchy of the USGA in the same time frame as C.B.Macdonald, with both men attaining the position of president, Ransom in '05 and Vanderpool in '24.  Both men were also members at MCGC. I can't help but think that CB would have taken a keen interest in what transpired on that particular site. 
 

[Tom_Doak]

Ransom H. Thomas and Wynant D.Vanderpool both worked their way through the hierarchy of the USGA in the same time frame as C.B.Macdonald, with both men attaining the position of president, Ransom in '05 and Vanderpool in '24.  Both men were also members at MCGC. I can't help but think that CB would have taken a keen interest in what transpired on that particular site. 

I can't help but think that, considering their long association with CBM, Thomas and Vanderpool were very motivated to make it sound like Macdonald was taking a keen interest, whether he was or not.   


I guess I just wonder if Macdonald was really the architect, how was his involvement hidden for so long?  Why hasn't the club been promoting it all this time?  And why didn't Macdonald himself mention the project in his book, which was written several years after the course was finished?


The odd bit is that it's more common for architects to exaggerate how many courses they've done, instead of deferring credit for ones they did do.  I'm odd that way, too, but I try to be pretty clear about my role in anything we've done.  It was a hobby for C.B., though, so he may have felt differently ... he could well have built the project and then written it out of his biography because they did something to piss him off.

[Nigel Islam]

It's interesting that the Courier News article above cites Raynor as having designed Piping Rock. I tend to gravitate to the fact that CBM and Raynor made a fantastic team when they worked together. I think they brought out the best in each other when it came to golf course construction.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Sven:


Not even close with the comparison.


First, that is a massive bunker. Second the hole is a Biarritz and not an Eden. Third the bunker flanks the fairway and not the putting surface.


Like I said, I'm not declaring Raynor never built a bunker like that but it would be highly unusual.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Great find, Bret.


AP

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Nigel:


The article says Raynor "laid out Piping Rock." In that time frame laid out, laying out, etc., meant built. I've found many articles that say Raynor "laid out" courses that Macdonald designed.


Tom: I think MCC lost this part of its history much the way Dedham Country and Polo lost the fact that Raynor renovated their entire layout. As for Macdonald not trumpeting his work, I'm not sure he talked up that much of what he did. I need to go back and read Scotland's Gift, but did he mention Gibson Island in there? The plans in the Olmted Archived show quite a brilliant 36-hole design.


Sven: what site did you use to find the Courier-New article? Thank you for posting it and all the others.


Anthony

[Sven Nilsen]

Anthony:


We'll agree to disagree on the similarities in the photos (and I'm fully aware that they are different templates). 


"Laid out" had different meanings back then.  I've seen it used to mean design, I've also seen it used to mean the translation of a design on to the ground.  If you want to delve into it further somewhere in the back pages of this site is a rather comprehensive and perhaps exhausting conversation on the various usages.  The fact that the lead in to the next article in my post above notes that CBM laid out the course should be enough to settle that it didn't just mean "built."


Don't recall where the article Courier-News article came from.


Sven

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

One of the other reasons I think Macdonald designed Morris County is the configuration of the front bunker on the Short Hole. It extends back towards the tee and is not something normally associated with a Raynor. His bunkers usually fit with the other greenside bunkers on that hole.


(Adding this part of the originally posting) In the aerial it appears as if the bunker at one point extended further back towards the tee. I believe that Forse found a footprint of a larger bunker and the current Short Hole front bunker fits into that footprint.


To my eye, Macdonald is patterning his bunker after this.


NGLA Short 1913 by Anthony Pioppi, on Flickr

Here is the MCC Short Hole from the undated aerial.


MCC Short by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/137719615@N02/]Anthony Pioppi, on Flickr[/url]

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

You are correct about the usages of laid out. It can mean to design or to build. I should have been more specific.


Anthony

[MCirba]

Nothing dispositive but from experiemce would note that a lot of history seems to have gotten lost on courses designed prior to WWI that opened after WWI.


Joe Bausch and I encountered this with a number of Willie Park Jr. courses designed in and around Philadelphia prior to the war, some of which didn't get built or open til years later, still using his design.

[Eric LeFante]

Anthony,


Nice article. Why don't you consider the 13th a redan?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I agree Mike but it appears there was no delay in the work on MCC. Although we don't know when plans were drawn up, construction began in '16 and the course opened with grub problems in '18, unlike Shoreacres which had plans created in '17 with construction beginning in '19.


Eric: The green merely runs away from the line of play with no kick slope to redirect shots to the desired corner.




Anthony

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