[Michael Wolf]

You've already got scores, but imho..


Hyde Park 6
Ravisloe 5
Mountain Brook 4 (or 5, but 7???)

[Jud_T]

I'd nominate Kingswood Golf Club in Wolfeboro, NH.  Probably in the Doak 4-5 range so near the bottom of the list, if at all,  but some very cool use of elevation and probably a lot of originality given the low-budget nature of the place.  Well worth a visit if in the area.

[Brad Tufts]

Kingswood's back nine was designed by Ault & Clark in the early 90s.  Not a bad place by any stretch, but the Ross holes are a bit squeezed, and the slightly more fair other nine by A&C is pretty benign.


Hi Cob...I agree that Concord was made much harder by the resto/reno, but I think it's for the better.  I think it's great because on a normal day it's very playable for the members despite being penal in places, and for the Dawson Invitational they can make it SO hard but still fair.  I'm still astounded that they went through with the Prichard work with a hefty assessment (like 20K per member or something) that my slightly golf-playing in-laws happily paid because once you're into the club, you do everything to stay!  We are doing our work at Tedesco only with a $100/month long range fee as assessments wouldn't fly in Tedesco's culture.


George Wright is an interesting case because it had been neglected for decades until the last 15 years or so.  Bones-wise it for sure has 6-7 potential, so it's well situated in the middle range in the Ross100, if maybe a touch high.  It's been a long time coming, but the Mass. Amateur comes to GW and FPark this summer!

[Rick Shefchik]

My own unique nomination to the list is Mark Bostick GC @ Univ of Florida (5) -- I guess this won't make the Top 100 unless someone else votes it a 6.

Palatka is a Ross and is really neat, especially 2-5 and the entire second nine. It's come a long way the last five or six years with some conditioning modifications by new management (again, Bobby Weed's company) and I don't think much has changed at all since it was first built.

Palatka is not a Ross. It was designed by William D. Clark, who was previously a fairly prolific architect in Minnesota before moving to Florida in the later '20s. Upon coming to Minnesota in 1916, the Scottish native finished Willie Park's design at Minneapolis Golf Club (where Clark was head pro), then designed Oak Ridge, the original nine at the University of Minnesota and several Minneapolis Park Board courses: Gross, Wirth, Columbia and Meadowbrook. Though Clark wasn't Donald Ross, there's no shame in a course having a Clark pedigree.

[Ted Sturges]

Question for you...      That would make at least 100 Ross courses that are a 5 or better on the Doak scale, which is an amazing feat for one architect (both in quality of work and in being prolific).  I believe Seth Raynor designed nearly 100 courses, so he would have a shot at claiming 100 5's or better.  Are there any other architects who could approach this record of achievement?

a)  I'm not going to get there, that's for sure.  I'll have to focus on the 8's and 9's.


b)  The Ross list is actually close to 100 courses that someone gives a 6 on the Doak Scale.  I don't think you can list 100 Seth Raynor courses that deserve a 6, though you are welcome to try [on another thread].  You will be scraping the bottom of the barrel just to get to 100 courses.


c)  Both Robert Trent Jones [while he was alive] and Jack Nicklaus 100% believe that they have built more 6's than Ross.  [I'm sure Greg Norman feels he is going to get there, too.]  The majority of their work probably gets at least a 5 from me ... it's well built and well maintained and all of that ... I just don't find it to have the interesting detail work necessary to get a 6 or a 7 from me.  But others would disagree.


If you think about it, any architect who builds 100+ courses must be reasonably popular and successful at what he's doing.  [And be fortunate enough to have his career centered in one of the boom periods.]

Interesting feedback Tom.  So one can make the argument that the Nicklaus organization and RTJ were both nearly as prolific as Ross, but I'm not buying either built more 6's than Ross...and I'm not sure I can say that either has built even one Doak 8.  It just illustrates the amazing career of Donald Ross.  He built 100 or more very good courses, and his best work is regarded as among the best courses in the world.


TS

[Kyle Harris]

Here are the 85 Ross courses I've played that I would rate 5 or better.  Hope it helps.

Cory:


WOW!


Your vote is the third wheel for some courses, and I can't count those according to my rules, but your votes on Brookside and Rolling Rock and Cedar Rapids and Buffalo will help them a lot, and you've added a few to the roster of 6's.  In fact I think we are pretty close to having 100 courses that someone has rated 6 or better.

More telling is the list of Ross courses I know Cory has played that AREN'T on the list.

[Nigel Islam]

Here are the 85 Ross courses I've played that I would rate 5 or better.  Hope it helps.

Alamance	5		Kennett Square	5
Aronimink	7		Lake Sunapee	5
Augusta CC	6		Linville	6
Barton Hills	6		Lu Lu	5
Bedford Springs	7		Metacomet	5
Belleview Biltmore	5		Miami Valley	5
Beverly	7		Mid Pines	7
Biltmore Forest	6		Mimosa Hills	6
Broadmoor (IN)	6		Minikahda	7
Brookside	8		Monroe	6
Cape Fear	5		Mountain Ridge	7
Carolina	7		Myers Park	6
Catawba	5		Northland	8
Cedar Rapids	8		Oak Hill (East)	5
Charles River	6		Oak Hill (West)	6
Charlotte	6		OaklandHills(S)	7
Chattanooga	5		Oyster Harbors	6
Cherokee	5		Pinehurst #2	9
Chester Valley	5		Pine Needles	6
Chevy Chase	5		Plainfield	7
Columbus	5		Raleigh	6
Congress Lake	7		Ravisloe	6
CC of Asheville	5		Rhode Island	6
CC of Buffalo	8		Roaring Gap	7
CC of York	5		Rolling Rock	7
East Lake	6		The Sagamore	6
Essex County	9		Salem	7
Forsyth	5		Schuylkill	6
Fountain Head	5		Scioto	6
Franklin Hills	7		Sedgefield	5
French Lick	7		Seminole	9
Glens Falls	6		Shaker Heights	6
Greensboro CC	5		Southern Pines	5
Grove Park Inn	5		Timuquana	6
Gulph Mills	7		Torresdale	5
Highlands	6		Vesper	6
Holston Hills	8		Wannamoisett	9
Hope Valley	7		Whitensville	7
Hyannisport	6		White Bear	8
Hyde Park	5		Winchester	6
Idle Hour	5		Woodhill	6
Interlachen	8		Worcester	6
Inverness	6

I love French Lick. I’d give it a solid 6 and put it in the same league as Broadmoor (IN,) Holston, East Lake, and Idle Hour.


I’ll mention Belle Meade in Nashville, but Doak 5 at best. I think it falls on the second 100....

[Nigel Islam]

Updated list:


Top 5:  Pinehurst #2, Seminole, Oakland Hills (S), Essex County, Inverness


Next 9:  Brookside, CC Buffalo, Cedar Rapids, Glens Falls, Northland, Plainfield, Salem, WBYC, Whitinsville


Top 20:  Aronimink, Franklin Hills, Holston Hills, Oak Hill (East), Scioto, Wannamoisett


Next 7:  Beverly, Charlotte CC, French Lick, Interlachen, Mid Pines, Roaring Gap, Winchester


Next 20 [47 total]:  Bald Peak, Barton Hills, Broadmoor (IN), Carolina GC, Charles River, Concord (MA), Congress Lake, East Lake, George Wright, Gulph Mills, Minikahda, Monroe, Mountain Brook, Mountain Ridge, Old Elm, Oyster Harbors, Pine Needles, Rolling Rock,  Skokie, Timuquana


Next 13 [60 total]:  Augusta CC, Highlands (NC), Hyannisport, Kahkwa, Linville, Mimosa Hills, Oak Hill W, The Orchards, Raleigh CC, Rhode Island CC, Sedgefield, Springfield (OH), Vesper


up to 95:  Bedford Springs, Belmont, Biltmore Forest, Brae Burn, Cherokee (TN), Columbus (OH), Detroit GC South, Essex (ON), Hope Valley, Hyde Park, Idle Hour (KY), Knickerbocker (NJ), Longmeadow, Manchester (NH), Memphis, Metacomet, Minneapolis GC, CC of Mobile, Muskegon, Myers Park, Oak Hill (MA), Penobscot Valley, Plymouth (MA), Portland (ME), Ravisloe, The Sagamore, Sara Bay, Schuylkill, Shaker Heights, Siwanoy, Southern Pines, Triggs Municipal, CC of Waterbury, Wilimington (NC), Woodhill


Rounding out the 100 for now:  Broadmoor East (CO), Catawba, Detroit GC (North), LuLu, Wampanoag, Worcester

Tom,


Question for you...      That would make at least 100 Ross courses that are a 5 or better on the Doak scale, which is an amazing feat for one architect (both in quality of work and in being prolific).  I believe Seth Raynor designed nearly 100 courses, so he would have a shot at claiming 100 5's or better.  Are there any other architects who could approach this record of achievement?


Best,


Ted

I’m as big a Raynor apologist as anyone, but there are only at best high 50s courses left to play. Of his alleged 100+ “designs,” many were never built, several were practice courses, and many have closed.


MacKenzie would be a better exercise, but I think this thread gives me new appreciation for Ross and his career.

[BCrosby]

It is not clear what Ross did at East Lake. We know he didn't route the current course. He seems to have done some bunkering work. Beyond that things are pretty hazy.


Bob

[Cob Carlson]

Brad, appreciate your Concord insights. My squawks are the bunkers left on 7, right on 8, right and left on 11, and left on 14 (YUCK). For all those holes, the green complexes are defense enough, especially coming out of the difficult Concord rough. No need for the impossible sand.


Thrilled that George Wright gets the high marks. 2018 marks the first year that the Mass Am Championship will be contested at a muni. High praise for the Wright!


Like Tom, I forgot to mention Siwanoy, a real beauty in metro NY.

[Scott Stambaugh]

Curious to know what folks think of Ross' only course in California...Peninsula?

I've only seen one other mention of Peninsula in this thread, to be expected though.  It sits way out here in CA with no other Ross courses in the same time zone.  And, it's typically passed over by folks whose travels focus on nearby "must-plays" (SFGC, Cal Club, Olympic) or south to the Monterey Peninsula.


I would give it a solid 6, trending to a 6.5 due to the continued fantastic work being done under the guidance of Ron Forse. 


Scott

[Ira Fishman]

I was very glad to see Hope Valley get so many nominations.  Kris Spence is doing a Master Plan so should only get even better.


Ira

[Brad Tufts]

Brad, appreciate your Concord insights. My squawks are the bunkers left on 7, right on 8, right and left on 11, and left on 14 (YUCK). For all those holes, the green complexes are defense enough, especially coming out of the difficult Concord rough. No need for the impossible sand.

Thrilled that George Wright gets the high marks. 2018 marks the first year that the Mass Am Championship will be contested at a muni. High praise for the Wright!

Yeah, I see what you are saying.  I'm so used to the current version that I barely remember the old.  I probably played the prior version 2 or 3 times, and the current version now 25-30x.  7 is a bitch of a hole for 380 yards, and those bunkers don't make too much sense considering the overhang of the trees on the right.  I don't mind 8 as much, as it seems a good defense for a short hole that would be overpowered.  Not sure I like the recent green addition to #8 though (offseason 16-17)...I don't think it needed more green strategically, but it may have been done to disperse foot traffic and add a pin location.  I get you on 14, which screams "technology combatting" to me.  It's a tough hole for the 250-260 driving crowd, but becomes a short iron today for the bombers.

Another change for 2017 was the additional bunker added left of #1 fairway (and the removal of the big pine short left of the green).  This has certainly tightened the line for those wanting to hit the green in two, as the corner carry is now 270ish, so even good drives just inside the bunkers will still have 225ish to the green.  Good for overall course defense, less so perhaps for fun!

On GW, I wish the whole tournament was there.  Franklin Park is fun but for a tourney it's only so-so...at least it's only one round.  Of course I have to qualify first...!

[Mike Hendren]

I'm always a little surprised at the love Mimosa Hills is given.  I much preferred Miami Valley for example. 

I think Lulu might actually suffer a bit from its "little gem" reputation.   There are some very good golf holes there. 

I have Chattanooga CC and Cherokee CC in the Volunteer state a little lower than most here as well - a full notch below Memphis CC which retains far more of its original design. 

Delighted to see Teugega highly rated notwithstanding its conditioning and maintenance.

I find Idle Hour stronger than most as well, but I suspect is not as widely visited as many others.

Any love for Pinehurst #1 or #3?

I'm really enjoying everyone's thought.  How wonderful to have such extensive work of a single golf architect so that virtually everyone is in a position to provide meaningful comment. 

[Bill Healy]

Brad and Tom,


Thank you for your interest in the golf course at Concord CC.
I agree with Brad that idersves a 7 or better.
Concord is in the top tier of Ross courses in MA......IMO.


Concord reflects early and late Ross characteristics as nine holes were designed and routed in 1913, and nine holes were built in 1928.
Despite the fact that the eighteen holes were designed at different times, Ross created an efficient seamless routing over varied terrain.


As Brad pointed out, Concord implemented a restoration and reconstruction program in 2004-05 which was implemented by Ron Prichard, Tim Strano, and Rob Schofield.  During the last decade, Ongoing renovation according to the Master Plan has been implemented by Peter Rappoccio, Andrew Green, and an informed Green Committee.


The outcome of this improvement process has delivered a terrific golf course to the members.
However, Concord has not caught the attention of golf course rafters and evaluators.
In 2018, the golf course at Concord is a firm fast fair track which is routed over interesting land.
The championship golf course plays to 6679ards, but Concord plays longer that it’s measured yardage.
The par is 70, eleven holes play uphill from tee to green, and eight par four holes are longer that 400 yards.
The four par threes play from 147 to 199 , and they play to three different compass points.
Unlike Cob, I think the bunkering is quite good and consistent with Ross design philosophy.....that add strategic options and ask golfers to think.  Cob, please come back this summer to see the new Ross designed right lateral fairway bunker at Five which will be installed this spring.


Concord is a nice family club with a low key culture and a first rate golf course.
Please come visit us.
A book on the golf course will be printed this summer for anyone who wants t9 learn more about the golf course at Concord.


Thanks,  Bill Healy

[Brad Tufts]

Thanks Bill!  Great info...I look forward to seeing the book when published!

[Joe Bausch]

This one will probably end up in the second 100 but Brookesville in Fl is about a 4. I think it was Bobby Weed who added the quarry holes on the back nine.

I didn't think the front 9 at Brooksville was a Ross.  Maybe I heard incorrectly (that it was a William Mitchell).

[Kyle Harris]

This one will probably end up in the second 100 but Brookesville in Fl is about a 4. I think it was Bobby Weed who added the quarry holes on the back nine.

I didn't think the front 9 at Brooksville was a Ross.  Maybe I heard incorrectly (that it was a William Mitchell).

Yep. William Mitchell did the original 18. Bobby Weed redid the second nine in 2006.

[JBovay]

The UF course is a Ross, but it's been renovated so many times there's nothing original left.

Derek: Thanks. I always thought that Weed's renovation was really a restoration, especially because Weed maintained 14 of the 1990s-era hole corridors (all but 4 and 14-16). But after seeing your post, I looked up an old aerial and found that the 1990s routing had also shifted 5 and 6, and that none of Weed's bunkering closely resembles the 1937 version. Weed's green shapes seem pretty different, too.


http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00071726/00007/13x?coord=29.65031623149964,-82.37217307090759,29.644777616539937,-82.36402988433838


I'll modify my earlier post.

[Matt Wharton]

I'm always a little surprised at the love Mimosa Hills is given.  I much preferred Miami Valley for example. 

I think Lulu might actually suffer a bit from its "little gem" reputation.   There are some very good golf holes there. 

I have Chattanooga CC and Cherokee CC in the Volunteer state a little lower than most here as well - a full notch below Memphis CC which retains far more of its original design. 

Delighted to see Teugega highly rated notwithstanding its conditioning and maintenance.

I find Idle Hour stronger than most as well, but I suspect is not as widely visited as many others.

Any love for Pinehurst #1 or #3?

I'm really enjoying everyone's thought.  How wonderful to have such extensive work of a single golf architect so that virtually everyone is in a position to provide meaningful comment. 

Mimosa Hills IMO is an example of what I call the quintessential Ross course.  I find it fascinating how much of "small town America" boasts great old courses (hidden gems) and Morganton, NC fits that description. It's a smallish town that once thrived and MHCC I'm sure was a happening place during the heyday. Also, being the home course of Billy Joe Patton adds to its legacy. Yes a few holes, especially on the second nine were over treed but recently the club has been removing trees and making improvements.  Which I find impressive giving the current economic situation at the club (declining membership numbers, welcoming outside play, etc.). Having said all that it is a course my wife and I drive 1 hour, 20 minutes to play multiple times each year because it's a fun course with low key vibe.


As for Teugega I can only say the course hired a new superintendent last year, Ian Daniels. He is a young father of three and excited for the opportunity. Ian doesn't possess a wealth of Ross knowledge but has expressed an interest and desire to learn more. I am not certain to his budgetary constraints but I believe given a little more time you should see improvement in the conditioning and maintenance of the course.


Cheers,

[Cob Carlson]

Hey Bill: I will be back to play Concord this spring and look forward to seeing the work on #5. I do believe Concord CC is a beautiful, terrific, underrated Ross course. I have sung its praises to folks for years. We'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the new bunkering. The routing, elevation changes and spectacular green complexes make it a special venue.


Also wanted to give a big shout out to Plymouth CC, another Ross gem at 6228 that never gets its due. It is one of the most challenging par 69 courses you'll ever play. Ben Whiting, the course superintendent, is one of the best you'll come across. He always has the course playing firm and fast. A very natural landscape, with great greens, and often windy, Plymouth requires thoughtful course management on every hole. A classic.

[Tom_Doak]

Also wanted to give a big shout out to Plymouth CC, another Ross gem at 6228 that never gets its due. It is one of the most challenging par 69 courses you'll ever play. Ben Whiting, the course superintendent, is one of the best you'll come across. He always has the course playing firm and fast. A very natural landscape, with great greens, and often windy, Plymouth requires thoughtful course management on every hole. A classic.

I will second these remarks as one of the votes for Plymouth was mine.


Plymouth makes at least two courses on the Ross top 100 that's a par-69.  Are there any others?  [I know Sakonnet used to be    but alas no longer.]  That would be an interesting bullet point if I were going to write up this list somewhere.  Indeed, I'd be interested to see the par and yardage of all of these courses, as many remain relatively unscathed by modernization, and I think it would be instructive for people to see how little Donald Ross cared whether "par" was 70 or 72.

[Tim Martin]

Also wanted to give a big shout out to Plymouth CC, another Ross gem at 6228 that never gets its due. It is one of the most challenging par 69 courses you'll ever play. Ben Whiting, the course superintendent, is one of the best you'll come across. He always has the course playing firm and fast. A very natural landscape, with great greens, and often windy, Plymouth requires thoughtful course management on every hole. A classic.

I will second these remarks as one of the votes for Plymouth was mine.


Plymouth makes at least two courses on the Ross top 100 that's a par-69.  Are there any others?  [I know Sakonnet used to be    but alas no longer.]  That would be an interesting bullet point if I were going to write up this list somewhere.  Indeed, I'd be interested to see the par and yardage of all of these courses, as many remain relatively unscathed by modernization, and I think it would be instructive for people to see how little Donald Ross cared whether "par" was 70 or 72.

Tom-I think you are referring to Wannamoisett but Waterbury is another solid par 69.  Not to threadjack but Wannamoisett has to be one of Ross’s toughest courses to post a score.

[V_Halyard]

Updated list:


Top 5:  Pinehurst #2, Seminole, Oakland Hills (S), Essex County, Inverness


Next 9:  Brookside, CC Buffalo, Cedar Rapids, Glens Falls, Northland, Plainfield, Salem, WBYC, Whitinsville


Top 20:  Aronimink, Franklin Hills, Holston Hills, Oak Hill (East), Scioto, Wannamoisett


Next 7:  Beverly, Charlotte CC, French Lick, Interlachen, Mid Pines, Roaring Gap, Winchester


Next 20 [47 total]:  Bald Peak, Barton Hills, Broadmoor (IN), Carolina GC, Charles River, Concord (MA), Congress Lake, East Lake, George Wright, Gulph Mills, Minikahda, Monroe, Mountain Brook, Mountain Ridge, Old Elm, Oyster Harbors, Pine Needles, Rolling Rock,  Skokie, Timuquana


Next 13 [60 total]:  Augusta CC, Highlands (NC), Hyannisport, Kahkwa, Linville, Mimosa Hills, Oak Hill W, The Orchards, Raleigh CC, Rhode Island CC, Sedgefield, Springfield (OH), Vesper


up to 95:  Bedford Springs, Belmont, Biltmore Forest, Brae Burn, Cherokee (TN), Columbus (OH), Detroit GC South, Essex (ON), Hope Valley, Hyde Park, Idle Hour (KY), Knickerbocker (NJ), Longmeadow, Manchester (NH), Memphis, Metacomet, Minneapolis GC, CC of Mobile, Muskegon, Myers Park, Oak Hill (MA), Penobscot Valley, Plymouth (MA), Portland (ME), Ravisloe, The Sagamore, Sara Bay, Schuylkill, Shaker Heights, Siwanoy, Southern Pines, Triggs Municipal, CC of Waterbury, Wilimington (NC), Woodhill


Rounding out the 100 for now:  Broadmoor East (CO), Catawba, Detroit GC (North), LuLu, Wampanoag, Worcester

... no further questions....

[Ed Oden]

Cory’s list is very solid in my opinion. The only courses I disagree with him on are Plainfield, Scioto and Monroe (higher) and Northland (lower). Admittedly, I may be biased with respect to Carolina GC. But I’m also by nature distrustful of my own potential biases and there is no doubt in my mind that Carolina should be moved up a notch since it is the equal of at least 5 of the courses in Tom’s “Next 7” group. Cory’s list seems to jibe with that opinion.

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