[Tom_Doak]

Here are the 85 Ross courses I've played that I would rate 5 or better.  Hope it helps.

Cory:


WOW!


Your vote is the third wheel for some courses, and I can't count those according to my rules, but your votes on Brookside and Rolling Rock and Cedar Rapids and Buffalo will help them a lot, and you've added a few to the roster of 6's.  In fact I think we are pretty close to having 100 courses that someone has rated 6 or better.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,


Thought of a couple more.


Belleair CC (Clearwater, FL)    5       IT is actually 36 holes, I have only played the "better course", and it was a 5.


Dunedin Golf Club  (Dunedin, FL, just north of Clearwater).   This one is also a 5, but might be a 7 if restored.  Dunedin was home to the PGA of America for many years.


TS

Ted,
Played both years ago.  My thoughts on Dunedin were that Ross needed to understand how to drain flat courses better.  Some of those fairways have probably been declared wetlands by now.  Didn't someone recently restore one of the two?  Restore isn't the right word, since I recall some re-routing involved.

[Tim Martin]

Point Judith is the least interesting of the RI Ross courses that I have played. It has a good par 4 to open but the land is uninspiring, greens are pretty tame and there is a weird shoved in hole on the inward nine(12 or 14). I don't know anything about the course's history but I would bet there were some routing changes subsequent to the open as well as some green flattening and or tinkering.

[Sven Nilsen]

After looking over Cory's list, I think I'd be more interested in seeing a list of Ross courses that don't measure up to at least a 5 on the Doak scale.  And then figuring out why.

[Cob Carlson]

Wow. Whitinsville top ten...how cool is THAT!


Like Brad, I think Concord CC should be considered for the top 100. Although I do have a love/hate relationship with it. I frequently worked for a producer who was a member, and have been fortunate to play the course many many times dating back to the 90's. Unlike Brad, I happen to have liked the course much better before the re-do. I feel that the new bunkering and added length were both too penal. It was a GREAT short golf course, with plenty of strategic challenges and more fun to play. The great green complexes have remained.


I think Triggs muni in Providence should be on the list. (6) Although scruffy around the edges, it is a jewel. A wonderful routing with all kinds of demanding long and short shots.


Have only played one Ross course in Florida, Dunedin, and was most impressed. Have always enjoyed the rounds at Hope Valley in Durham, too.


Curious to know what folks think of Ross' only course in California...Peninsula?

[Matt Wharton]

Here are the 85 Ross courses I've played that I would rate 5 or better.  Hope it helps.

Alamance	5		Kennett Square	5
Aronimink	7		Lake Sunapee	5
Augusta CC	6		Linville	6
Barton Hills	6		Lu Lu	5
Bedford Springs	7		Metacomet	5
Belleview Biltmore	5		Miami Valley	5
Beverly	7		Mid Pines	7
Biltmore Forest	6		Mimosa Hills	6
Broadmoor (IN)	6		Minikahda	7
Brookside	8		Monroe	6
Cape Fear	5		Mountain Ridge	7
Carolina	7		Myers Park	6
Catawba	5		Northland	8
Cedar Rapids	8		Oak Hill (East)	5
Charles River	6		Oak Hill (West)	6
Charlotte	6		OaklandHills(S)	7
Chattanooga	5		Oyster Harbors	6
Cherokee	5		Pinehurst #2	9
Chester Valley	5		Pine Needles	6
Chevy Chase	5		Plainfield	7
Columbus	5		Raleigh	6
Congress Lake	7		Ravisloe	6
CC of Asheville	5		Rhode Island	6
CC of Buffalo	8		Roaring Gap	7
CC of York	5		Rolling Rock	7
East Lake	6		The Sagamore	6
Essex County	9		Salem	7
Forsyth	5		Schuylkill	6
Fountain Head	5		Scioto	6
Franklin Hills	7		Sedgefield	5
French Lick	7		Seminole	9
Glens Falls	6		Shaker Heights	6
Greensboro CC	5		Southern Pines	5
Grove Park Inn	5		Timuquana	6
Gulph Mills	7		Torresdale	5
Highlands	6		Vesper	6
Holston Hills	8		Wannamoisett	9
Hope Valley	7		Whitensville	7
Hyannisport	6		White Bear	8
Hyde Park	5		Winchester	6
Idle Hour	5		Woodhill	6
Interlachen	8		Worcester	6
Inverness	6

Cory knows what those in the know, know. Carolina is on par with Ross courses held in high regard. It really is special, and yes, I'm biased.    Also, Southern Pines is a restoration away from ascending to high places on the list.

[Terry Lavin]

Great thread for this Ross-centric, list-obsessed crew. Not sure I’ve ever seen a thread get to three pages this fast. And I’ll throw Cory Lewis some “props”. Wow. What a phenomenal and quick response. You got game, my friend.


This thread is a testament to the brilliance and continuing vitality of this website. There is action, interest and knowledgeable information being passed around in a passionate way.


Love it. I think Beverly should be higher, but who am I to Judge?  😅

[Joe Bausch]

Love it. I think Beverly should be higher, but who am I to Judge?  😅

How 'bout a Fresca?

[Tom_Doak]

Updated list:


Top 5:  Pinehurst #2, Seminole, Oakland Hills (S), Essex County, Inverness


Next 9:  Brookside, CC Buffalo, Cedar Rapids, Glens Falls, Northland, Plainfield, Salem, WBYC, Whitinsville


Top 20:  Aronimink, Franklin Hills, Holston Hills, Oak Hill (East), Scioto, Wannamoisett


Next 7:  Beverly, Charlotte CC, French Lick, Interlachen, Mid Pines, Roaring Gap, Winchester


Next 20 [47 total]:  Bald Peak, Barton Hills, Broadmoor (IN), Carolina GC, Charles River, Concord (MA), Congress Lake, East Lake, George Wright, Gulph Mills, Minikahda, Monroe, Mountain Brook, Mountain Ridge, Old Elm, Oyster Harbors, Pine Needles, Rolling Rock,  Skokie, Timuquana


Next 13 [60 total]:  Augusta CC, Highlands (NC), Hyannisport, Kahkwa, Linville, Mimosa Hills, Oak Hill W, The Orchards, Raleigh CC, Rhode Island CC, Sedgefield, Springfield (OH), Vesper


up to 95:  Bedford Springs, Belmont, Biltmore Forest, Brae Burn, Cherokee (TN), Columbus (OH), Detroit GC South, Essex (ON), Hope Valley, Hyde Park, Idle Hour (KY), Knickerbocker (NJ), Longmeadow, Manchester (NH), Memphis, Metacomet, Minneapolis GC, CC of Mobile, Muskegon, Myers Park, Oak Hill (MA), Penobscot Valley, Plymouth (MA), Portland (ME), Ravisloe, The Sagamore, Sara Bay, Schuylkill, Shaker Heights, Siwanoy, Southern Pines, Triggs Municipal, CC of Waterbury, Wilimington (NC), Woodhill


Rounding out the 100 for now:  Broadmoor East (CO), Catawba, Detroit GC (North), LuLu, Wampanoag, Worcester

[Derek_Duncan]

Tom,


It's hard to judge Broadmoor East because they don't play the original Ross holes as a contiguous course.


As you know the East Course is a hybrid of 9 Ross holes and 9 upper Trent Jones holes, and the West course is the same. Sometimes when it gets later in the season the resort will close the higher Jones holes and play the 18 lower original holes (mostly Ross though Jones built and modified I think two holes below the road).


But it would be interesting to judge the Ross holes on their own. They would certainly be well inside his top 100, IMO.

[Sean_A]

My goodness - seeing it like this:
If, as a class, the 'average English course' (Doak 5-6) is the gold standard for fine, playable, sustainable, walkable golf that can be enjoyed everyday by a wide-range of skill sets, Mr. Ross managed single-handedly to create 100+ of these courses right across a goodly portion of the United States -- an entire 'class' of high-quality golf all by himself, and also added at least a dozen+ exceptional/great courses to that same landscape while hardly ever disturbing the land itself.
What a truly remarkable career.

IMO Ross and Colt are like archie brothers.  Both could deliver high or low end golf while serving their clients very well.  Their styles are remarkably similar and both were prolific.  There are very few courses from either archie which haven't impressed me on some level....well except those courses which didn't or don't have enough of input remaining.

Ciao

[mark chalfant]

White  Bear  Yacht   8
Mountain Brook  (Alabama)   7
Memphis  6
CC of  Buffalo   7
Essex County   7
Glens Falls  7


Worcester 7
Monroe    7
Interlachen   7
Teugaga     6
Oak Hill East   6



Longmeadow  7
Metacomet   6
Shaker Heights 5
Congress Lake  5
Detroit North 4


Essex  (Ontario)   6
Waterbury   5
Siwanoy  6
Orchards, Mass   6

[JBovay]

My own unique nomination to the list is Mark Bostick GC @ Univ of Florida (5) -- I guess this won't make the Top 100 unless someone else votes it a 6. This is really a Bobby Weed design now.


I second Shennecossett as a 5. (So that also won't make the Top 100.)



The following courses were mentioned on another thread. Anyone have a rating?
Exmoor CC, Highland Park, Illinois
Forsyth CC, Winston-Salem
CC of Spartanburg
Palatka GC [possibly not a Ross and only about a 3 pre-renovation]
CC of Orlando
Evanston GC, Skokie, Illinois

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - thanks.
I made neither the connection to Colt, nor (more importantly) to the ability to "deliver both high or low end golf" -- which notion had never before occurred to me in regard to the golden age greats.
And because it was you (a hockey fan) who posted, it also reminded me of a dichotomy I first sensed as a 10 year old defence-man in the Toronto city league, i.e. one could strive to be Bobby Orr, a brilliant meteor streaking across the sky but burning out quickly (and have a record plus-minus of 124!), or to be a Gordie Howe, a fine tough as nails talent who scored (a good but not spectacular) 25-30 goals a year, year after year, and decade after decade. For many years, there was no comparison - Bobby was my guy (and still, IMO, the greatest to have ever played to game); but with each passing year, I marvel more and more at what Gordie was able to do.

[Michael Whitaker]

CC of Spartanburg (SC) is not a Ross. There is no architect of record... no one knows who designed it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Neither is CC of Orlando.

[mike_malone]

Torresdale is my favorite in Philly.

[Cliff Hamm]

Bit surprised no one has mentioned George Wright.  GW , Shennecossett, and Triggs are the big 3 of southern New England munis designed by Ross.  One could argue forever which is better.  If they were maintained like a private I have little doubt they would be ranked higher.


Just realized GW was on the original list...

[Sean_A]

Sean - thanks.
I made neither the connection to Colt, nor (more importantly) to the ability to "deliver both high or low end golf" -- which notion had never before occurred to me in regard to the golden age greats.
And because it was you (a hockey fan) who posted, it also reminded me of a dichotomy I first sensed as a 10 year old defence-man in the Toronto city league, i.e. one could strive to be Bobby Orr, a brilliant meteor streaking across the sky but burning out quickly (and have a record plus-minus of 124!), or to be a Gordie Howe, a fine tough as nails talent who scored (a good but not spectacular) 25-30 goals a year, year after year, and decade after decade. For many years, there was no comparison - Bobby was my guy (and still, IMO, the greatest to have ever played to game); but with each passing year, I marvel more and more at what Gordie was able to do.

It is interesting you raise the notion of Orr and Howe...sort of like Strantz and Ross.  In any case, so far as dmen go, I would take Lindstrom over any other dmen I have seen or know about (and Orr was my boyhood idol as well).  He was more instrumental to his team's success over a longer period of time than any of them...think about it.  Not very flashy like Orr, but far more durable and in the end, dependable.  I still think that when Lindstrom retired he was still one of the five best dmen in the league that any team would have killed to sign...in some ways I am only fully realizing how damn good he was....how Lidstrom never won a handful of Hart Trophies is something I will never understand.  One trait Orr and and Lidstrom share is class...much like Colt and Ross.


Ciao

[Derek_Duncan]

My own unique nomination to the list is Mark Bostick GC @ Univ of Florida (5) -- I guess this won't make the Top 100 unless someone else votes it a 6.

The UF course is a Ross, but it's been renovated so many times there's nothing original left.


Bobby Weed remade the course in 2001 and built several new holes and re-routed others. To me it's outstanding -- there's a ton of variety, cool old architecture shapes and contours, and it's an innovative use of small space. It's probably a 5/6 but it shouldn't be counted as a Ross anymore.


Palatka is a Ross and is really neat, especially 2-5 and the entire second nine. It's come a long way the last five or six years with some conditioning modifications by new management (again, Bobby Weed's company) and I don't think much has changed at all since it was first built.

[Tom_Doak]

White  Bear  Yacht   8
Mountain Brook  (Alabama)   7
Memphis  6
CC of  Buffalo   7
Essex County   7
Glens Falls  7


Worcester 7
Monroe    7
Interlachen   7
Teugaga     6
Oak Hill East   6



Longmeadow  7
Metacomet   6
Shaker Heights 5
Congress Lake  5
Detroit North 4


Essex  (Ontario)   6
Waterbury   5
Siwanoy  6
Orchards, Mass   6

Already had two votes for most of these, but your votes will bump up Mountain Brook ... and I forgot Siwanoy was a Ross course!

[Ted Sturges]

Updated list:


Top 5:  Pinehurst #2, Seminole, Oakland Hills (S), Essex County, Inverness


Next 9:  Brookside, CC Buffalo, Cedar Rapids, Glens Falls, Northland, Plainfield, Salem, WBYC, Whitinsville


Top 20:  Aronimink, Franklin Hills, Holston Hills, Oak Hill (East), Scioto, Wannamoisett


Next 7:  Beverly, Charlotte CC, French Lick, Interlachen, Mid Pines, Roaring Gap, Winchester


Next 20 [47 total]:  Bald Peak, Barton Hills, Broadmoor (IN), Carolina GC, Charles River, Concord (MA), Congress Lake, East Lake, George Wright, Gulph Mills, Minikahda, Monroe, Mountain Brook, Mountain Ridge, Old Elm, Oyster Harbors, Pine Needles, Rolling Rock,  Skokie, Timuquana


Next 13 [60 total]:  Augusta CC, Highlands (NC), Hyannisport, Kahkwa, Linville, Mimosa Hills, Oak Hill W, The Orchards, Raleigh CC, Rhode Island CC, Sedgefield, Springfield (OH), Vesper


up to 95:  Bedford Springs, Belmont, Biltmore Forest, Brae Burn, Cherokee (TN), Columbus (OH), Detroit GC South, Essex (ON), Hope Valley, Hyde Park, Idle Hour (KY), Knickerbocker (NJ), Longmeadow, Manchester (NH), Memphis, Metacomet, Minneapolis GC, CC of Mobile, Muskegon, Myers Park, Oak Hill (MA), Penobscot Valley, Plymouth (MA), Portland (ME), Ravisloe, The Sagamore, Sara Bay, Schuylkill, Shaker Heights, Siwanoy, Southern Pines, Triggs Municipal, CC of Waterbury, Wilimington (NC), Woodhill


Rounding out the 100 for now:  Broadmoor East (CO), Catawba, Detroit GC (North), LuLu, Wampanoag, Worcester

Tom,


Question for you...      That would make at least 100 Ross courses that are a 5 or better on the Doak scale, which is an amazing feat for one architect (both in quality of work and in being prolific).  I believe Seth Raynor designed nearly 100 courses, so he would have a shot at claiming 100 5's or better.  Are there any other architects who could approach this record of achievement?


Best,


Ted

[Pete Lavallee]

This one will probably end up in the second 100 but Brookesville in Fl is about a 4. I think it was Bobby Weed who added the quarry holes on the back nine.

[Tom_Doak]

Question for you...      That would make at least 100 Ross courses that are a 5 or better on the Doak scale, which is an amazing feat for one architect (both in quality of work and in being prolific).  I believe Seth Raynor designed nearly 100 courses, so he would have a shot at claiming 100 5's or better.  Are there any other architects who could approach this record of achievement?

a)  I'm not going to get there, that's for sure.  I'll have to focus on the 8's and 9's.


b)  The Ross list is actually close to 100 courses that someone gives a 6 on the Doak Scale.  I don't think you can list 100 Seth Raynor courses that deserve a 6, though you are welcome to try [on another thread].  You will be scraping the bottom of the barrel just to get to 100 courses.


c)  Both Robert Trent Jones [while he was alive] and Jack Nicklaus 100% believe that they have built more 6's than Ross.  [I'm sure Greg Norman feels he is going to get there, too.]  The majority of their work probably gets at least a 5 from me ... it's well built and well maintained and all of that ... I just don't find it to have the interesting detail work necessary to get a 6 or a 7 from me.  But others would disagree.


If you think about it, any architect who builds 100+ courses must be reasonably popular and successful at what he's doing.  [And be fortunate enough to have his career centered in one of the boom periods.]

[mark chalfant]

Teugega  in Rome, NY   7


Great routing, variety, and fabulous greens !




Crestmont, NJ  5
Hillcrest, Missouri  5
Irondequoit, NY  6
Peninsula, CA  6

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