[Peter Pallotta]

As with the other recent ones, I'm enjoying this 'state profile' very much. Rankings & analysis by locals on their home-turf brings the game and its courses back to where they best belong.
Shane's description of Somerset was remarkably similar to one I might provide re a Stanley Thompson parkland course in Southern Ontario that I played this fall. It's striking how comforting (maybe it brings back early memories) are those treed, gently doglegging 385ish yard Par 4s with slight uphill/downhill rises and ridged/back to front sloping greens. (That course also finishes with a 450+ yard Par 4.) Living where I do, they say 'golf' to me as much as links do to a Scot. 

[Jason Topp]

A few comments:

The hole labeled 2 on this photo is one of my favorites on the course.  It is a dramatic tee shot and then an uphill 2nd.  I have no idea whether the resulting hole made it worthwhile to sacrifice the original short hole.

The hole labeled 7 has a nice double plateau green.  I had not noticed it prior to the last couple of years so I wonder if it was restored somewhat.

The labeled 9 is supposed to be a road hole and there must have been some recent work to reshape that green.  The lack of a road hole bunker is a bit surprising.  The tee shot captures the concept nicely with the pond and trees serving a role analogous to the Rail Sheds.

One used to have to hit a big slice off the tee on the hole labelled 10. Tree removal has fixed that but I always looked forward to trying to pull off the shot.

The Biarritz (labeled 12) has always seemed somewhat compromised to me due to the water to the left and behind the green.  I am no Raynor historian but I did once hit a tee shot I thought was good that wound up in the water so I am definitely biased on that one.

18 is a very good classic long par 4 finisher.

[Josh Bills]

Somerset Aerials

1940 Aerial showing the "Short" bottom right corner it appears. 

[/size]

1957 Aerial showing similar locations but a lot more trees.[/font]

[PCCraig]

#12 - The Classic at Madden's Resort, Brainerd

For the 12th course on our list, we are traveling back north to Brainerd, Minnesota. Brainerd is largely a resort and vacation cabin town centered around a massive chain of lakes.

The Classic at Madden's bucks a number of stereotypes of "resort" golf. It is a natural, classically designed golf course that largely lays on the natural contour of the land with no homes anywhere on the course. The course was interestingly designed by its current superintendent, Scott Hoffmann.

The golf course has historically been well received, and has hovered in the Top 50-60 public golf courses in the United States by Golf Digest.

The round begins and ends at the very well proportioned clubhouse:

*The following pictures were taken from the "Wisconsin Golf Addict" blog (link: https://wiscosportsaddict.files.wordpress.com/)

Looking back at the par-5 1st, showing the good amount of movement in the greens:

Looking at the green at the 3rd:

The green at the 8th:

The 11th:

The very pretty par-3 17th:

[Jason Topp]

The Classic violates almost every norm expressed on this site:


Eye Candy Bunkers - it has a million of them - see pictures of 11 and 17
Cart Golf - while the course is a pleasant walk and attempts to promote walking, nearly everyone rides
Trees - the course is tree lined and trees play a prominent role in the course.  You will without a doubt punch out or be required to curve a ball around a tree at some point in the round.
Forced water carries - Holes 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 16 and 17 all involve water that crosses the fairway that you must carry. 


You will know you are on a different type of course by the fourth tee.  The first is a par 5 that has a dogleg left reverse camber fairway off the tee with a blind landing area.  The second shot is usually a layup down a slope that is pinched at the bottom of the hill between the lake and a small pond.  You then go uphill to a steeply sloped green that is divided by a tier.  The 2nd is a relatively conventional short par 3 with water on the front right.  The 3rd is a bit overgrown most of the year but is a fantastic 330 yard cape hole with a green jutting into the same lake that slopes towards the water on the back half and on the edges.  The tree pictured in Pat's introductory post can greatly complicate what a shot from 100 yards.  Then - standing on the 4th tee you see a 420 yard dogleg left with gigantic trees guarding the corner and a fairway bunker on the ideal line.  You can layup to 200 yards or try a hook around the trees or a variety of other options.


Nonetheless, I think it is a fabulous course with one of the most unique collection of holes I have ever played.  Many unconventional holes work very well.  It has 5 par 5s which range from a ball busting 600 yard uphill 12th that is a great par 5-1/2 to the 470 yard 10th that I can even reach if the stars all align correctly.  The remaining par 5's provide both a carrot and stick to the player.  The par 3's are a nice variety.  Two 200 yard holes on the back nine standout in my book - the 12th features a huge hump at the front center of the green and the 14th plays a bit like a natural reverse redan.  Par 4's range from a drive and pitch to some long slogs that nonetheless offer temptation to all levels of player that for me must be taken on the reach the green in regulation.


Part of the reason I like the course is that it does not follow the rules.  Perhaps its uniqueness comes from using a superintendant as the course designer.


At times the course looks impossible but can be had on a good day.  My best 18 hole score in Minnesota was at this course.  I also suspect some of my worst scores were here as well but those are best forgotten. 

[Jason Topp]

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/classicmaddens/aerial.htm?next=tour.htm

[Laz Versalles]

As a native son of MN I'm enjoying this thread. But at this point the list is starting to remind me of when the ESPN Sports Century top 50 ranked Secretariat higher than Ben Hogan. I just don't see how that happens. The Classis is a nice resort course with huge mosquitos. I've been there twice and it just never turned me on.


Somerset, Stoneridge, Olympic Hills, Keller and Spring Hill are all far, far better experiences than The Classic.

[PCCraig]

As a native son of MN I'm enjoying this thread. But at this point the list is starting to remind me of when the ESPN Sports Century top 50 ranked Secretariat higher than Ben Hogan. I just don't see how that happens. The Classis is a nice resort course with huge mosquitos. I've been there twice and it just never turned me on.


Somerset, Stoneridge, Olympic Hills, Keller and Spring Hill are all far, far better experiences than The Classic.

Laz,


I don't have the numbers directly in front of me, but generally speaking the difference between a lot of these courses is very small...such as averages between 5.43 vs. 5.45. So there is a pretty small difference between courses #10 and #15. I will post the entire list at the end along with the average Doak ranking for each course.

[PCCraig]

The Classic violates almost every norm expressed on this site:


Eye Candy Bunkers - it has a million of them - see pictures of 11 and 17
Cart Golf - while the course is a pleasant walk and attempts to promote walking, nearly everyone rides
Trees - the course is tree lined and trees play a prominent role in the course.  You will without a doubt punch out or be required to curve a ball around a tree at some point in the round.
Forced water carries - Holes 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 16 and 17 all involve water that crosses the fairway that you must carry. 


You will know you are on a different type of course by the fourth tee.  The first is a par 5 that has a dogleg left reverse camber fairway off the tee with a blind landing area.  The second shot is usually a layup down a slope that is pinched at the bottom of the hill between the lake and a small pond.  You then go uphill to a steeply sloped green that is divided by a tier.  The 2nd is a relatively conventional short par 3 with water on the front right.  The 3rd is a bit overgrown most of the year but is a fantastic 330 yard cape hole with a green jutting into the same lake that slopes towards the water on the back half and on the edges.  The tree pictured in Pat's introductory post can greatly complicate what a shot from 100 yards.  Then - standing on the 4th tee you see a 420 yard dogleg left with gigantic trees guarding the corner and a fairway bunker on the ideal line.  You can layup to 200 yards or try a hook around the trees or a variety of other options.


Nonetheless, I think it is a fabulous course with one of the most unique collection of holes I have ever played.  Many unconventional holes work very well.  It has 5 par 5s which range from a ball busting 600 yard uphill 12th that is a great par 5-1/2 to the 470 yard 10th that I can even reach if the stars all align correctly.  The remaining par 5's provide both a carrot and stick to the player.  The par 3's are a nice variety.  Two 200 yard holes on the back nine standout in my book - the 12th features a huge hump at the front center of the green and the 14th plays a bit like a natural reverse redan.  Par 4's range from a drive and pitch to some long slogs that nonetheless offer temptation to all levels of player that for me must be taken on the reach the green in regulation.


Part of the reason I like the course is that it does not follow the rules.  Perhaps its uniqueness comes from using a superintendant as the course designer.


At times the course looks impossible but can be had on a good day.  My best 18 hole score in Minnesota was at this course.  I also suspect some of my worst scores were here as well but those are best forgotten.

Jason,


Very good analysis of The Classic. I only played the course once a couple of years ago, so it is interesting to hear the perspective of someone who has played it many more times.


I really enjoyed the golf course. On paper you would assume it would be a long, hard, slog. However it's a pretty fun golf course. Challenging for sure, but every hole is distinctive, different, and features a neat shot or two. Pictures really don't do the course justice as I think it has a much more natural feel to the design in the way that it is routed over the land.


I'm sure most folks take a cart when they play. When I played I walked with a caddie and it was very enjoyable. Despite some longer green to tee walks it is much more walkable than the nearby Deacon's Lodge, for example.


The Classic is a fantastic value at $80 walking during the week.

[Jason Topp]

As a native son of MN I'm enjoying this thread. But at this point the list is starting to remind me of when the ESPN Sports Century top 50 ranked Secretariat higher than Ben Hogan. I just don't see how that happens. The Classis is a nice resort course with huge mosquitos. I've been there twice and it just never turned me on.


Somerset, Stoneridge, Olympic Hills, Keller and Spring Hill are all far, far better experiences than The Classic.

Laz


Pat is correct about the small differences at this point in the list.  Our methodology was to assign whole number Doak scale scores to the courses that might be in the mix.  In this range of ranking, nearly every course would get a 6 or a 5 on the scale.


With as few as 4 voters for some of these courses, a 1 point difference by 1 voter could move the ranking quite a bit.  A 1 point difference could be due to differences in the way someone applied the scale rather than a difference in perceived quality.


Having said that - for me if I compare the Classic hole by hole your list, for me it would easily beat Somerset, Olympic Hills, Keller and Spring Hill.  Stoneridge would likely come out ahead of the Classic but not by a huge margin.

[V_Halyard]

As a neighboring state of Minnesota with status as a native Cheesehead, transplanted Iowan, that commutes to California, I'm loving this. Knowing some of the GCA Paul Bunyans on this panel, I must say I was surprised to see "The Classic" pop up in the top 15!  It is so full of architectural insolense that I think my Minnesota pals enjoy it like a vice.  It is a golf course equivalent of a strip club... whatever that means!

Fun is fun, though I know some of you try to cover your license plates when you drive in and out of the lot.  lol

[PCCraig]

#11 - Town & Country Club, Saint Paul

The 11th golf course on our list is one that has become known for quite a few folks from GCA in recent years as it was co-host of the 2015 Midwest Mashie (along with Winding Farm) and my home club for six years.

Town & Country has been called the "Birthplace of Minnesota Golf" as the first rounds of golf were played in Minnesota at T&C in 1893 on the same piece of ground that it sits on today. The course was expanded to 18 holes in 1908 and the routing has remained largely unchanged since the 1920's. The Club and golf course was nationally renowned for the first sixty plus years of its existence, even being selected at one point to host the 1940 Walker Cup (in between hosts Pine Valley and St. Andrews).

The course and club suffered a bit after the 1960's due to the movement of wealth from the cities to the suburbs as well as from a number of poor (although all too familiar) Green Committee mistakes of excessive tree planting, added rough, and intentionally shrinking putting surfaces.

In recent years, the golf course at Town & Country has seen a tremendous resurgence due to the remarkable effort of Superintendent Bill Larson, his assistant Eric Tolzmann, consulting architect Jeff Mingay, and a cabal of members interested in restoring the golf course.

The course benefits though from a great property that sits on a bluff over the Mississippi River and is bisected by ancient ravines...quickly draining the course after rains allowing for the most consistently firm and fast course in Minnesota, by my experience.

The scores assigned to T&C from our panelists ranged greatly, from a couple of 7's to 4's. It's generally a polarizing golf course that at many times can make golfers feel very uncomfortable with sidehill lies, blind shots, and fast sloping greens. The par of the course is also hugely unique in that the 2nd and 3rd holes are back-to-back par-3's and the course finishes with a stretch of holes with pars of 3-5-5-5-3. It's quirk to the max.

I posted a fairly in depth photo tour after the 2015 Mashie, but here are a few recent photos of the golf course:

The short 110 yard 2nd:

A view of the par-3 3rd hole:

The view from the tee at the 490 yard, par-5 4th:

Down the hill for the second shot on the 9th hole, named "Toboggan":

The ironic view of the Minneapolis skyline and Mississippi River below from the top of the T&C range:

Looking back at the par-5 16th:

A view of the restored green at the par-3 18th:

[Neil Davis]

#11 - Town & Country Club, Saint Paul

#cabal

[Rick Shefchik]

T&C is definitely a course that grows on you the more you play it. Local knowledge is just crucial: you stay right off the tee on #1, because the slope in the rough will kick you back into the fairway (the angle to the green isn't as good from the right, but why flirt with the creek up the left side?); club selection on the uphill #2 is crucial, because the green is deep and you can't tell where the hole is from the tee; #6 is going to play like a par 5, and the longer you hit it off the tee, the quicker you have to elevate your second shot to clear the ridge which blocks your view of the green (pick a telephone pole or smokestack in the distance for an aiming point); if you bail right on #8 (away from the OB that lines the hole on the left), the fairway falls away steeply to a hollow you can't see from the tee; your drive on #9 needs to be long enough to give you a look at the green at the bottom of the hill, but not so long that you go over the crest and leave yourself a nasty downhill lie in the rough; a fade off the #10 tee is almost required to get past the V tree hanging over the right side of the fairway; going for the green on the short, dogleg left #12 is a foolhardy play (despite the plaque that teases you with the tale of the guy who aced the hole back in 1961); you're better off coming up short on the long par-3 14th than going over the back of the green; you can come up well short and still roll an approach shot onto the green of the par-5 #15, despite not being able to see the green, because the downhill slope of the last 100 yards is so steep (a much better option than trying to hit the green on the fly and going long); and knowing that a draw on #17 is the much preferred tee shot, even though the hole looks like it might be open on the right (it isn't.)


I love thinking my way around T&C; I'd shoot a million there if I hadn't played it a dozen times.

[Jason Topp]

I really enjoy T&CC but I enjoy it due to its quirk rather than because I think it features a large number of great golf holes.  Most Minnesotans would be very surprised at seeing the course on a "best of" list in the state.   

[BHoover]

I enjoyed T&C each time I played it—it’s quirky, the land on which the course sits is very interesting, and there are some really good holes (6 and 12 in particular, which share a common chipping/collection area in the far corner of the property). But also, probably because it’s so quirky, I’m not sure I’d want to play there more than a couple times each year, unless I lived in the neighborhood.

[Jeff Shelman]

I preface this by saying that I had either the lowest or tied for the lowest rating for T&C, but I don't see how it can be deemed better than Somerset.


There are some good holes at T&C but there are also some holes that are average at best.


I had 22 courses scored higher than T&C.

[Criss Titschinger]

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying this thread. Can't wait to see the top 10.


I do like the look of 3 at T&CC now, with the background trees removed and green expanded

[Jim Nugent]

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying this thread. Can't wait to see the top 10.

I bet Sam Skarda's home course is #1. 

[V_Halyard]

#11 - Town & Country Club, Saint Paul

 the course finishes with a stretch of holes with pars of 3-5-5-5-3. It's quirk to the max.

Walkers... Hole #14 = Hydrate   

[PCCraig]

Most Minnesotans would be very surprised at seeing the course on a "best of" list in the state.   

As of today, you are probably right. The interesting thing is that before 1950 Town & Country was consistently named as one of the best golf courses in the metropolitan area, right along with Minikahda, Interlachen, and White Bear. It was well regarded enough to be considered for national amateur (USGA Women's Amateur, Walker Cup, WGA Amateur) tournaments as well. As I alluded to in my introduction, the golf course really suffered from 1960 on due to some very poor architecture and presentation decisions. Planted trees, added rough, shrunken greens, etc. to the point where the Club became known as more of a social club with a golf course in its backyard. To its credit, the Club's membership has begun to better appreciate its history and has shown an interest in restoring the golf course. Not necessarily to chase a ranking but because there has been a newfound appreciation for classic features.

But also, probably because it’s so quirky, I’m not sure I’d want to play there more than a couple times each year, unless I lived in the neighborhood.

If you play a course more than a couple of times each year, its quirks can also reveal themselves as character. As Rick mentions, a course like T&C takes a few plays to understand how to play...it makes players feel uncomfortable and each hole's strategy isn't all right in front of you.

There is no doubt that Town & Country is a polarizing golf course. One recent visitor has since remarked that he would rather "go sledding there than play the course again." But I think there are some very strong holes on the course where you hit some really fun (and unique) shots. Holes like #2, #6, #10, #11, and #15 are all very good in my opinion and feature an element not seen often elsewhere. Adding to the fun quota is the course's terrific variety...just look at the set of par-3's (#2: Uphill 110 yards, #3: slight down hill 160 yards, #11: 190 yards replica of the now defunct Dowie hole at Liverpool, #14: 240 yard long iron or wood, and #18: downhill 140 yard finishing hole with a severe green).

No doubt, there are some average holes...#7 is not an over appealing hole and #5 breaks every rule to be an ideal golf hole.

But, in the end, Town & Country is the type of golf course that I enjoy. I would much rather play a golf course such like T&C than get beat up at a place like Hazeltine. So perhaps all of my Doak rankings for this Minnesota list are favored toward these types of courses.

I preface this by saying that I had either the lowest or tied for the lowest rating for T&C, but I don't see how it can be deemed better than Somerset.

Perhaps it is clear that I am bias toward T&C as a former member. However, in their current state(s) Somerset is behind T&C. Is the experience at Somerset great...absolutely. But the golf course is a bit of a jumbled over treed mess. There are a few neat Raynor remnants, but there are way too many mundane Robert Bruce Harris / Stanley Thompson holes to rate it in the top 15 in the State. I think Midland Hills is a significantly more interesting Raynor design right now than Somerset. But, Somerset tends to get a boost in everyones (Golf Digest or GCA) rankings because of the elite membership and its stature as a club.

[Laz Versalles]

I've probably played T&C a hundred times, most recently during the Hogan administration. I was completely prepared for it to be left off the list. T&C is not without it's charm and does have some substance: #10 is a great hole. #6 is solid. Back-to-back-to-back par 5s is a gambler's wet dream unique feature. But hitting a wedge into the par 3 18th is odd and a little deflating to a great match. People I have tremendous respect for tell me it's in wonderful shape these days and I can't wait to see it again.


To score T&C a Doak 7, meaning it's "worth checking out if you're within a hundred miles" seems generous. I'm not sure I'd give it that kind of endorsement. Others might.
And if it was awarded a Doak 8- meaning it's "worth a special trip to see" I'd advise a few added stops at other courses to make the trip worthwhile.

[PCCraig]

To score T&C a Doak 7, meaning it's "worth checking out if you're within a hundred miles" seems generous. I'm not sure I'd give it that kind of endorsement. Others might.
And if it was awarded a Doak 8- meaning it's "worth a special trip to see" I'd advise a few added stops at other courses to make the trip worthwhile.

T&C's ranking was based on 8 votes. It received two 7's, two 6's, three 5's, and Jeff's 4

[Jim Franklin]

There are some nice sledding hills at T&C....

[Jim Franklin]

More to the point, I only played 15 holes at T&C. I need to play it again to understand some of the quirk better. People tell me that BCC has some nice sledding tracks too and I see kids sneaking on to do this in the winter from time to time. I do believe T&C would be fun in that regard as well. But back to golf, I need to play it again when not rushed by an approaching storm and an impending flight.

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