[PCCraig]

The club continues to follow a plan that enhances the look of this wonderful piece of land, its only going to get better, tree thinning, mowing line presentations and greens expansions started last spring, will only add to the charm of WBYC.

No one mentioned the new mowing presentation on # 1 green, I thought that was as good as any of the other changes that are currently happening around the golf course, of course hole #12 still captivates my heart, you will never see aonther hole like that one.

Jim,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on White Bear.

Indeed, last spring brought on some fairly dramatic changes to the golf course.

The 1st green site was changed dramatically for the better by removing a number of surrounding trees and changing the mowing pattern to include far more shortgrass...including mowing the fronting mound down to better deflect approach shots.

The more shortgrass that is reclaimed the better the golf course gets, in my opinion. Even though White Bear isn't typically the firmest piece of ground, balls still roll all over the place after landing due to the extreme topography.

Also a big change was the removal of a vast number of scrub trees and undergrowth in the forest between the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th holes. Now when you are playing down #2 you can see the 3rd green, 4th tee, and 4 fairway which is a really great look. Hopefully more of these dense forest areas will be cleaned out in the future. 

[Jeff_Mingay]

I've been fortunate to play WBYC a handful of times. For my tastes, it's about as good as it gets.

[Buck Wolter]

This is a wee bit hard to follow.  I'm interested in seeing the list that has been compiled.

At one point I knew golf in Minnesota as well as anyone, but 25 years away leave me a step or two behind.  I've recently seen Interlachen (naked with almost no trees), Minikahda (just awesome), and some others.  Favorably mentioned above, Golden Valley has always been one of my favorites to play.

Probably not on anyone's list, some of my recommendations off the beaten path have always been Owatonna (love, love, love), Winona (now called The Bridges?), and the original 9 holes at Cloquet.

I have been a member of Owatonna for the last few years and appreciate it being brought up. While the course has some shortcomings it has a number of very strong holes (most from the original 9 that dates back to 1919). I hope to do a little research this winter as the old pro found some things at the library about a TC Pro who was hired to design it. I haven't played WBYC but #10 at Owatonna would seem to fit in very well from the pics I've seen. 

I would put in a plug for Le Sueur CC which I think is a hidden gem as well. The 9th hole is world class and worth the short drive from MSP on its own --very Langfordesque. I get the feeling its similar to Owatonna with a golden Age 9 and then a Goldstrand 9 but am not sure about the history.

Love the thread and appreciate all the time Pat and others have put into this as it gives me a good to do list.

Buck

[PCCraig]

As promised, the full list from #1 through #30 is posted below:

A big thanks is due to all of the Minnesota GCA folks who contributed to the list with write-ups, pictures, and expertise. In addition, a big thanks again to Jon Cavalier who shared some of his professional-level photographs of Hazletine, Interlachen, and White Bear. Also, many thanks to those in the "industry" for sharing their professional insight...the commentary from Chris and Jake on Northland was incredible, and it is always a treat to have architects such as Tom Doak, Jim Urbina, and Jeff Brauer partake in the discussion.

This was hardly a "perfect" process, but I think we were pretty forward with that. The primary purpose of this thread was always to not just post another ranking list, but to dive deeper into each course to discuss its merits and demerits. I hope this thread has helped those who aren't as familiar with golf in Minnesota to understand the depth of quality courses we have here, and the next time they are considering a trip they might consider Minnesota (and check out courses that they might of otherwise overlooked!)

When I first e-mailed the Minnesota group about this idea, I did not think it would take nearly two months to put together! While some might of thought the pacing of the thread was deliberate, it really just boiled down to needed an evening or two to compile (or help coordinate) each course's write up.

Overall it was a fun process and an interesting exercise. I hope others might consider putting together a similar list for their respective city, state, or region.

[Laz Versalles]

Really enjoyed the thread. Lots of hard work and a beautiful presentation. This really shed light on the many great courses in the state. Seems like the more votes a course got the better chance it had at getting a high score?

[Jason Topp]

Thanks Pat for all of your work on this and for posting the raw scores which probably should be more meaningful to the reader.  Other than a couple of notable exceptions, our group came up with pretty similar scores. 

It is interesting to see the courses with the biggest variation - Town & Country (4-7), Oak Ridge (3-7) and Edina (3-6).   I would have predicted Town & Country but not necessarily the other two.

[Dan Kelly]

It is interesting to see the courses with the biggest variation - Town & Country (4-7), Oak Ridge (3-7) and Edina (3-6).   I would have predicted Town & Country but not necessarily the other two.

Edina doesn’t surprise me. But I would love to hear whoever gave Oak Ridge a 3 explain why he thinks it is about a “world average” golf course.

[Jim Franklin]

Yes, well done Pat and the rest of the Minnesota crew. I have really enjoyed my two trips out there and hopefully can visit again soon. Midwest Mashie certainly in enticing.

[John_Conley]

...I would love to hear whoever gave Oak Ridge a 3 explain why he thinks it is about a “world average” golf course.

No kidding.  It's a 5 in my book so perhaps it could have used my vote to offset.


Glad to hear we have an Owatonna member on here!  For sure #10 is straight WB.  That hole is nuts from the road.  Been so many years since I played it I am shocked I don't recall how wild that is!

[John_Conley]

30 Giants Ridge legends - have not seen (Sorry, Keff!)
29 Stillwater CC - 5 a nice place to play, very good terrain
28 Wayzata CC - 4 a better club than golf course
27 Edina CC - 4.5 a course I know very well
26 Olympic Hills - 3.5 been a long time since I've seen it but not in league of other TC privates
25 Minnesota Valley - 4.5 a bit odd in places, but fun to play and has Raynor features
24 Keller - 3 (although I have not seen since the extensive renovation)
23 Troy Burne - have not seen
22 Somerby CC - have not seen, heard incredibly difficult
21 Deacon’s Lodge - 4 very nice modern track
20 Stoneridge - 4
19 North Oaks GC - 5 underappreciated
18 Midland Hills - 3.5 (although I reckon it has aged well and deserves higher...ages since I've seen it)
17 Rochester golf and CC - 5 (over treed, other people liked it more than I do)
16 Wilderness at Fortune Bay - have not seen
15 Spring Hill GC - 4 unusual in Minnesota, but I've seen dozens like this
14 Oak Ridge CC - 5 great course
13 Somerset CC - 5.5 extra half-point for how great the club is
12 Classic at Madden’s Resort - ugh 2.5
11 Town and Country Club - remarkably I have never been there
10 Woodhill CC - 5 see Somerset
9 The Quarry at Giants Ridge - again, my apologies Jeff!
8 Minneapolis GC - 4.5 solid, but a little low on the fun factor
7 Golden Valley tie - 7 FUN FUN FUN, always one of my personal faves
6 Windsong Farm GC tie - 6.5 a really likable modern creation
5 Hazeltine National GC - 6 I'm not a roaring fan, but it is a lot better than people think if they've only seen it on tv
4 Minikahda Club - 7.5
3 Northland CC - 6.5 (I'd like to see it again, has been decades)
2 Interlachen CC - 7.5
1 White Bear YC - 8

Final thought is that I don't think The Doak Scale works best for rating, voting, and averaging.  There's too much compression.  Essentially courses are rated 4-7 with very few exceptions.  If I have time I'll create a linear scale of 1-10 for the Top 50 courses in the state and it would sort them by deciles.  Forced separation.

[Jason Topp]

John


Olympic Hills was completely rebuilt a couple of years ago.  I have not played the revised version but they sand capped the entire course and the pictures look beautiful.  I did not vote on the course because my opinion pre-renovation would have been low and and not reflective of what exists now.

[V_Halyard]

John


Olympic Hills was completely rebuilt a couple of years ago.  I have not played the revised version but they sand capped the entire course and the pictures look beautiful.  I did not vote on the course because my opinion pre-renovation would have been low and and not reflective of what exists now.

I would be interested in Jeff Shelman's opinion of Olympic Hills. We played it together about a year and a half ago just post-renovation. As a Non-Viking vessel sailor, I have not played enough Minnesota Courses to rate it across the board. I do think the Prichard renovation was quite enjoyable given the challenge presented by a constricted and bi-polar routing linking two disparate plots of land.
There was an interesting section on the front where his features and shot angles helped the player "forget" we were being led through a particularly dense and tightly bordered "residential district". He did a nice job of framing tough routing.

[Jeff Shelman]

Vaughn,


I generally have mixed feelings about Olympic Hills.


It is much improved over the old version, but the old version might have been the least fun course in town.


Obviously the turf is great and the greens are perfect. There is good width, there are pretty good options and while it can play super long, there really are very few forced carries into greens as you can bounce/roll it onto probably 14 or so holes.


The parts that leave me less inspired are the routing and the fescue/natural areas. I think the renovated course would have been much better if they could have found a way to have all of the holes on the north side of the road on the same nine. Those holes are some of the most improved on the course, but man those transitions are really difficult. If you could get all of them on the same nine, I think it would be much better.


Regarding the fescue. The first time I played there, it was very whispy and it was easy to find golf balls. The second time, it was quite dense and thick. Digging around in fescue and native grass is fine once in a while, but if you have some higher handicap players in the group, I think it makes for a long day.


To sum it up, I think there’s a lot of good stuff there and the greens don’t bother me as much as they bother some - there are a couple that are borderline over the top, but as a group they aren’t bad. That said, the routing leaves me thinking that it could have been even better.

[JBovay]

This is a great thread, thanks to all who provided information.


How long is the golf season in MSP? Could one plan to play May 1 to November 1, or is the season a bit longer than that? Thanks.

[BHoover]

This is a great thread, thanks to all who provided information.


How long is the golf season in MSP? Could one plan to play May 1 to November 1, or is the season a bit longer than that? Thanks.

It depends on the year, but during my time in Minnesota, I played each year in March through mid-November. The best time for golf was always August through October.

[Buck Wolter]

This is a great thread, thanks to all who provided information.


How long is the golf season in MSP? Could one plan to play May 1 to November 1, or is the season a bit longer than that? Thanks.

It depends on the year, but during my time in Minnesota, I played each year in March through mid-November. The best time for golf was always August through October.

You got out just in time— no golf until May this year

[PCCraig]

This is a great thread, thanks to all who provided information.


How long is the golf season in MSP? Could one plan to play May 1 to November 1, or is the season a bit longer than that? Thanks.

I think the average season is closer to April 1 to November 1. Private clubs have opened as early as St. Patrick's Day in 2012, and as late as May 7th this year. You can have some warm days in November, but my experience is that there aren't many great golfing days on average after Nov. 1.


The season is shorter here, but the weather we do get from June-October is pretty spectacular.

[BHoover]

The season also depends where you are in the state. If you live in the Twin Cities, you’re probably playing earlier and later in the year than if you live a few hours north in Duluth. And if you live in International Falls, you’ll be ice fishing.

[Criss Titschinger]

Based on the emails I got from The Wilderness this year, they only opened about a month ago.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Most of the courses north of Duluth had a lot of winter kill this year.  Will be interesting to see how good Superior National looks for our June 28 grand re-opening.  They rarely get busy before Father's Day up there, as schools let out later than some places, which delays the buddy golf trips.


BTW, haven't gone through this entire thread, but did play Keller and Royal (the former Tartan Park, reduced to 18 and redesigned by Palmer (back nine) and Anika (front nine.)  Actually liked the front nine better, with a few more creative holes, but Royal at a max of $79 with cart is a very nice addition to the MSP golf scene, and worth far more than that on the open market, IMHO.


Supposedly, the 12th hole is the last one Arnie personally visited and changed, about 6 months before his death.  Big changes, too, as they built a complete new par 3.  Second version is definitely better than the first, so maybe a great call by Arnie.

[Jake Marvin]

Jeff,


Agree on Royal, I think it's right up with StoneRidge and Keller among Twin Cities publics.


Curious on your take on Superior National. Having not seen it, how will the renovated course stand up against Quarry and Fortune Bay? I get the sense that the property at Superior is a bit more rambunctious, so I'd imagine there's at least good contrast between them.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,


Agree on Royal, I think it's right up with StoneRidge and Keller among Twin Cities publics.


Curious on your take on Superior National. Having not seen it, how will the renovated course stand up against Quarry and Fortune Bay? I get the sense that the property at Superior is a bit more rambunctious, so I'd imagine there's at least good contrast between them.

Regarding StoneRidge, I had played it early after its opening, and liking the visuals, but recall quitting after 14 because it was no longer enjoyable.  You get to 14 green and can turn to the clubhouse or turn away and play the last 4 holes.  I heard two other people say the same thing, without prompting.  I recall the greens being well contoured, but having seen it right after Royal, changed my mind, they are mild in comparison to Royal.


As to SN, I think it will stand up favorably,

better in some respects (mostly looks) and maybe less well for golfers who prefer a significant length and hard challenge.

The take on the old version was that it was an average (or slightly below) course on a great site.  Imagine a site where great views of Lake Superior are only the second best views on the course? (Second, IMHO, to the raging Poplar River going through the course)


Now the course matches most closely to the Legend in difficulty, as we purposely made it not hard.  In difficulty and style it is similar to Wilderness and Legend, but not Quarry. Their player demographic was even higher on the female side than other MN courses.  It was a very short course, and we could only get back tees up to 6900 yards or so, well short of my other courses. 


One of those length extensions was pretty unique and achieved a minor career goal of designing crossing fairways that are safe!  The new back tees are right next to 2 green, but hidden by trees from 2 tee, and safe.  The cross points of the two center lines occur somewhere over the river, and the cart path goes a long way around.  Turned 3 River from a 390 hole to 470+, but not sure how many will play back there.


So, I wonder a bit that it may rank lower because of length, but I worried the same thing about Firekeeper in Kansas, which ended up leapfrogging my other two Kansas courses, pushing Colbert Hills down to 2 and Sand Creek down to 3 in the public course rankings of that state.  Maybe the same thing will happen here, at least if the de-emphasis on difficulty trend continues.


In any case, it is worth a play, regardless of final rankings.  Significant improvements to all tees, greens (too sloped) and bunkers (now with white sand, vs. virtual dirt).  And, with drainage and irrigation, and fw cross slope modifications, we should have fixed the "too dry or too wet, but never quite right" image the course had as borderline unplayable at times.

[Jason Topp]

This thread was a good one.  As a coda, No Laying Up did a profile of Northland well worth your time:


https://youtu.be/Xs9r0b5kLjg

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