No more call-ins!

[JESII]

I mark to get it out of the way...but definitely think the little indentation extraction is an issue.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's rude to take the time to fix a pock mark your ball came to rest in when you can place it a quarter inch to the side and quickly move on. Not to mention the unrealistic expectation that greens are all perfectly equal. TV has all but ended the close up since the Lexi fiasco.

[jeffwarne]

After the Lexi fiasco I suggested that when remarking the ball, any part of the coin (and let's return to coins, not rude poker chips) could be used to replace the ball.
No one would ever be marking it closer to the hole in this case, and a hole could simply be legally avoided. We delay play all over the course for "abnormal ground conditions" why not on the green with no delay?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

First players are still incentivized to call infractions because it is a penalty for fellow competitors to knowingly disregard the rules and the rules guys on this thread know this.

I'm a "rules guy," and all I can tell you is that PGA Tour players do NOT want to call an infraction on another player. That ended a long time ago.

Which brings me to the other observation that there are two kinds of rules officials I have worked with; those that assume they are there to help the player and the field and start from the vantage that the player wants to get it right and those that assume the player is just guilty until proven innocent and he wants to notch one more call on his belt.

I really haven't met ANYONE who meets the latter description. Not saying they're not out there, but most ROs I know are simply there to help.

It seems to me that pros do not want the responsibility of watching fellow competitors. Without call ins to make anyone look bad, they have all the more reason to just go along to get along.

You're right: they don't. That's what the backstopping stuff is about. I've seen other pros say that if you don't backstop for someone, or you deny that a spot asked about for repair on the putting green is a ball mark, you're shunned.

After the Lexi fiasco I suggested that when remarking the ball, any part of the coin (and let's return to coins, not rude poker chips) could be used to replace the ball.

Why? How about you just endeavor to put it back right where you picked it up from? Why introduce a grey area when, for decades, we've been fine marking and replacing it pretty much where you pick it up from? Besides, the rules don't say you have to mark the ball directly behind it, so you could move the ball closer to the hole: mark it to the side, replace it in front.

[jeffwarne]

hook, line, and sinker

[Erik J. Barzeski]

hook, line, and sinker

Way to advance the discussion.

In case you've confused this topic with the "roll-back" one, I've not willingly opted out of this one. I think it's ridiculous that the USGA and R&A continue to try to appease the modern PGA Tour pro or LPGA Tour pro making gobs of money with less and less accountability.

[Jim_Coleman]

    I am pleased that an issue I raised several years ago (to much criticism) - "backstopping" -  is now generally recognized as business as usual on the tour.  The correct remedy under the rules today would be for both players to be disqualified, as it is obvious that they are agreeing to help each other, if only tacitly.  Of course, this never happens.
    I made a suggestion then for a rules change, and I will repeat it here.  If player A's ball is within 5 feet of the hole, and player B's ball is withing ten yards of the green, Player A must mark his ball.  If he does not, and if Player B's ball strikes Player A's ball thereafter, then Player A will be penalized one stroke.  That will put an end to "backstopping."  And no, players will not measure distances before deciding whether to mark the ball on the green.  If that happens and the ball is left near the hole, the only explanation will be collusion.  And again, no, this will not cause a material slow down in play.

[jeffwarne]

Erik,
You're the one who has suggested the LPGA and PGA Tours are rife with cheaters ready to gain any advantage, and can't be trusted to play the game with honor-unless they have risks of overnight scorecard penalties deterring them.
I'm merely suggesting that in a world where there are perfect fairways, drops from "abnormal ground conditions", line of sight relief from temporary obstructions, that if we simply allowed the player a simple and quick way to avoid putting out of a hole when their ball settles in one on a green, that the honest players who play it out of the holes or from behind spikemarks not be penalized nor tempted to do anything illegal.
No different than many events I play in where a player is allowed to move his ball out of aerification hole on the green.


But hey, I'd be fine with continuing to call it a game of honor and playing it from such a hole with properly scaled equipment for the courses as well.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I am pleased that an issue I raised several years ago (to much criticism) - "backstopping" -  is now generally recognized as business as usual on the tour.  The correct remedy under the rules today would be for both players to be disqualified, as it is obvious that they are agreeing to help each other, if only tacitly.  Of course, this never happens.
    I made a suggestion then for a rules change, and I will repeat it here.  If player A's ball is within 5 feet of the hole, and player B's ball is withing ten yards of the green, Player A must mark his ball.  If he does not, and if Player B's ball strikes Player A's ball thereafter, then Player A will be penalized one stroke.  That will put an end to "backstopping."  And no, players will not measure distances before deciding whether to mark the ball on the green.  If that happens and the ball is left near the hole, the only explanation will be collusion.  And again, no, this will not cause a material slow down in play.

The USGA/R&A is going the opposite direction, though, in placing more trust and assuming more honesty on the parts of competitors. Such a rule would fly in the opposite direction (and thus, I suppose, in the face) of that.

I agree there's an unwritten unspoken atmosphere of collusion on the PGA Tour re: backstopping. The examples grow in number with almost every tournament, and that's just what's shown on TV.

You're the one who has suggested the LPGA and PGA Tours are rife with cheaters

I've done no such thing.

ready to gain any advantage, and can't be trusted to play the game with honor-unless they have risks of overnight scorecard penalties deterring them.

I've said the rules change incentivizes people to be as ignorant as possible. That's true. There's still a DQ if you knowingly write down an incorrect score. If you can honestly say "Nope, I didn't know that was a penalty" then you stand to gain by your lack of knowledge: the worst that can happen is the original penalty (no DQ, now no two additional strokes!). The best: no penalty!

And… I mostly discuss golf at large. As I've said before, I don't care all that much about the 0.001%. This rule change affects junior golf. It affects your local club championship. It affects golf at every level.

I'm merely suggesting that in a world where there are perfect fairways, drops from "abnormal ground conditions", line of sight relief from temporary obstructions, that if we simply allowed the player a simple and quick way to avoid putting out of a hole when their ball settles in one on a green, that the honest players who play it out of the holes or from behind spikemarks not be penalized nor tempted to do anything illegal.

a) The ball doesn't really settle into holes when it comes to rest on a putting green. Maybe when greens stamped at 6, sure.
b) Wait for 2019. Players can fix anything on their line then.

[Kalen Braley]

The takeaway based on Erik's comments are I think we can put the "honor" thing to bed once and for all.


Golfers are indeed human, (I know big shocker here), and at the very least the anecdotal evidence suggests they need to be officiated/ref'd by a 3rd party....just like we do in every other sport.  And yes calls will be missed, just like they are in every other sport, and yes there will still be controversy over some calls, just like in every other sport....and yes it is possible to do this, just like in every other sport.


No other sport that i'm aware of requires a player to call a penalty on a competitor... its naive to think golf would be any different, especially in light of the massive pay days on a per tournament basis.

[jeffwarne]

The takeaway based on Erik's comments are I think we can put the "honor" thing to bed once and for all.

No I disagree, and the more we assume the above is true, the faster we go down the slippery slope.
Which is why I am NOT a "grow the game at all costs" kind've guy.
Overbuilding bred desperation, and desperation reduces selectivity.
Golf's not for everyone-but we seem to want to recruit everyone rather than let the game grow organically, albeit slowly-with some control, training and yes selectivity over who graces our fields of play and how they behave(as in an ettiquette test)


Want to cheat? Need to be watched? Want to scream "you da man" at a professional event? Don't want to repair your damage from divots and ballmarks?


Play another game

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff, These are his words:


I agree there's an unwritten unspoken atmosphere of collusion on the PGA Tour re: backstopping. The examples grow in number with almost every tournament, and that's just what's shown on TV.

When I read this, I think... if this is true, then what else are they cutting corners on or getting away with?

P.S.  And I should clarify, I don't think this kind of stuff is new...its likely been going on for decades.  All the more reason the Tour needs to be proactive about maintaining the integrity of thier tour, not relying on competitors who have all kinds of conflicts of interests to self police.  Its not a knock on anyone, its understanding human nature...

[JMEvensky]

P.S.  And I should clarify, I don't think this kind of stuff is new...its likely been going on for decades. 

Pure speculation,but I would disagree.


I'd suggest that,back in the day, the relatively little money being played for acted as an incentive to police any sort of rules overlook. There are plenty of quotes/comments from players about how important high finishes were to actually making a living.


I have trouble getting a mental picture of Ben Hogan looking the other way while Sam Snead's bunker shot stopped close to the hole because Byron Nelson didn't mark his ball.


But now the prize pool allows #125 on the money list to live a very comfortable life. There seems to be a universal agreement among players to go along/get along--there's enough money for all of them to live very comfortably. I'm not sure if this is "cheating". But I am sure it's contrary to the spirit of the game--at least the way I was taught.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I would tend to favor the side that says "backstopping" is a fairly recent thing. Last ten years or so, tops, maybe.

I grew up hearing about Ken Venturi fighting Arnie at Augusta re: his drop behind the 12th (IIRC), and Tom Watson calling out Gary Player for matting down grass with a wood before ultimately hitting an iron (in a Skins game no less?).

I think the money has made "looking the other way" possible, and the culture has grown in this (bad) way only recently.

[John Kavanaugh]

Calling professional golfers cheaters started in the Tiger era. Not so thinly veiled racism. Now with all this talk of money we have morphed into a more modern classism. Disgusting either way.