[Padraig Dooley]

It seems that the reason most don’t want video evidence is because it’s unfair on those in contention as they get more coverage then those who are not.


Is it not the case that those in contention also have bigger crowds following, more people to find lost balls, more people to stop balls rolling into trouble, more people to trample down Long grass leading to better lies? We’ve also seen advantageous drops from tv towers etc.


Being in contention gives players an advantage over those not in contention. This advantage is much greater then the chance of an infraction being spotted on tv. There’s only a handful of penalties imposed because of call ins. There’s far more balls found by spectators and balls stopped then those.


It seems players have no problem gaining these advantages but have problems with extra scrutiny. What’s wrong with extra scrutiny? It’s only an issue if a rule is broken. Why wouldn’t a player take a penalty if a rule is broken?


PGA Tour players have no problem spending hours practicing looking to save shots. Why wouldn’t they attend rules seminars to learn the rules and save shots? They’ve now even less reason to learn them.

[jeffwarne]

Golf has alwasy been a game of honor.
An Honor code is only admirable when it is known that you perhaps could get away with something if you were hell bent on cheating. That person IMHO has an extremely short shelf life and is a risk worth taking to maintain the integrity and repsct the game has always commanded.



Penalties still exist for signing for a incorrect scorecard, just no penalty for signing one where the player did not know ABOUT a penalty. The best rues gy in the world could still be penalized if he inadvetantly touched a grain of sand on his backswing and no one saw it (and he wasn't aware).


Eric is right that there may be incentive for someone who feels he may have committed a rules infraction but chooses to "roll the dice" because the worst case is the penalty, bu no DQ or additional 2 stroke penalty.
That person and incident would be very rare in my opinion on the PGA Tour, and it's a rsik I'm willing to take to retain honor as a foundation of the game, and to keep knucklehead callers out of the game.


Someone might win a major where it is later determined that his ball moved slightly in the rough(most likely deeper) at address as he stared out at the target or if he clipped a tiny grain of sand on his backswing in a bunker.




I would have no problem with that as officiating in no sport is ever perfect, and erring on the side of honor has historical precedent-and I don't want to live in a world where a creep in his basement is relevant in deciding major championships due to inadvertant, nonadvantage gaining mistakes.


But then I never used to remind my teacher that homework was due either......

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It is illogical to penalize a player for an incorrect score before the 72 hole finish.

No it isn't.

It's illogical to let a player known to have committed an infraction get away with it. The statute of limitations is the end of the tournament.

I have no idea why we have this subdivision of scores prior to the 72 hole completion.

Because you play with different markers each day, and some may go home, so you need their signature. It's a very simple, practical reason.

Bottom line, creating fake opportunities to penalize someone is never going to score well with me.

It's not a "fake" opportunity, and the player has FAILED in their obligation to follow the rules.

A society where you gain fame by being a snitch is very dangerous. Or at least it never worked out well in the past. Snitchnado is tearing us apart.

Please, share the name of ANY caller-in. Where's the fame if nobody even knows who these people are? For all you know, a fellow rules official "called in" the Lexi penalty. Or Craig Stadler's penalty in 1987.

+1 to Padraig's post.

Golf has alwasy been a game of honor.

Now it's less so.

That person IMHO has an extremely short shelf life and is a risk worth taking to maintain the integrity and repsct the game has always commanded.

Really? Some think Lexi cheated - intentionally moved her ball a little - and seems to be just fine. Many think Hideki cheated - intentionally and deliberately stepped on the divot as the ball was rolling back to that area. Yet he's fine in the eyes of most.

Penalties still exist for signing for a incorrect scorecard, just no penalty for signing one where the player did not know ABOUT a penalty.

It is part of their obligation and responsibility to KNOW about the rules and appropriate penalties. They incur the penalty when they commit the act, not when they realize they got the penalty. Thus, they signed an incorrect scorecard.

The best rues gy in the world could still be penalized if he inadvetantly touched a grain of sand on his backswing and no one saw it (and he wasn't aware).

If it's not visible to the naked eye, he wouldn't be, no.

That person and incident would be very rare in my opinion on the PGA Tour, and it's a rsik I'm willing to take to retain honor as a foundation of the game, and to keep knucklehead callers out of the game.

Lexi wouldn't have taken it. She didn't even think she deserved the two for the original penalty. Hideki didn't take it.

Someone might win a major where it is later determined that his ball moved slightly in the rough at address as we stared out at the target(most likely deeper) or if he clipped a tiny grain of sand on his backswing in a bunker.

I can play that game too Jeff… I can conjure far worse scenarios. You're phrasing everything as some teeny tiny infraction that doesn't really affect anything. I could do far worse. It's just hypotheticals, but golf and the rules have to consider those.

There's no longer any incentive to write down a score that includes your penalty strokes, or even to investigate whether you incurred a penalty when you did X or Y. Just let it ride, and there's only upside: if you're not caught, you get by with a lower score. If you're caught, plead ignorance and you haven't lost anything, you just incur the penalty you actually incurred.

I don't want to live in a world where a creep in his basement is relevant in deciding major championships due to inadvertant, nonadvantage gaining mistakes.

You keep saying "non-advantage gaining." And even making your hypotheticals that way. What if there is an advantage-gaining infraction? Some think Lexi moved the ball intentionally. Hideki certainly gained an advantage, or was looking to.

[jeffwarne]

Eric-you bring up some interesting points.


Even a Lexi fan like me wonders what went down and how she's done it in the past.
She may well have moved it on purpose-I don't know.


But the scrutiny on her is far greater now.
You may say she's fine, but I'd say she's not as you, and others are calling her out.
That has a price, and certainly will reduce her chances of getting the benefit of the doubt in the future-at least in the eyes of reputation and history.


Maybe, just maybe she's at least learned to carefully replace her ball.

[Rick Lane]

Who knows why she did what she did.   There have been players over the years seen and accused of moving their ball CLOSER .....in her case it looked like she went sideways.    Spike mark in her line?  In any case, it was not a "fraction", either.  For sure she won't do that again.

Isnt spike marks one of the changes for 2019?       

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Isnt spike marks one of the changes for 2019?       

Yes.

[Sean_A]

It's illogical to let a player known to have committed an infraction get away with it. The statute of limitations is the end of the tournament.

Nobody is suggesting  a player committing an infraction should be llowed to "get away with it".   Prior to the closing of the tournament if a player is found to have broken the rules (without resorting to tv viewers) a penalty is assessed.  The signing of an 18 hole scorecard doesn't effect this procedure in the slightest and therefore shouldn't be used as a way to assess additional penalties. 

Because you play with different markers each day, and some may go home, so you need their signature. It's a very simple, practical reason.

Sure, get a signature if it makes you happy, but it isn't necessary and is another case of needless complications.  What should matter is the final 72 hole signature.  If a problem occurs prior to the closing of a tourny we have things called phones which can easily be used to interview players should they no longer be on site (or even if they are on site...what a wonderful world) and their input is required. 

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

I know this may not be popular....


But if this really is a self policing game, or at least policing within your group, the pros need to be stop being so self absorbed on the course and pay attention to when thier partner is doing something and have the balls to call them out.  Yes there will be some ugly stuff at first, but pretty soon guys would know they are being watched by thier peers, and they will know exactly what to look for when it comes to the cheats like replacing your ball or moving twigs around your ball.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Nobody is suggesting  a player committing an infraction should be llowed to "get away with it".   Prior to the closing of the tournament if a player is found to have broken the rules (without resorting to tv viewers) a penalty is assessed.  The signing of an 18 hole scorecard doesn't effect this procedure in the slightest and therefore shouldn't used as a way to assess additional penalties.

Players sign cards to signify that this is the score they shot.

As I noted above, wiping away the two-stroke penalty wipes away an incentive to make sure that is correct and includes penalty strokes, which helps to ensure that players play under the Rules.

If there's no two-stroke penalty, there's no downside to not including a penalty. The worst case scenario is that you get the penalty you actually incurred, and no more. The upside potential is that you're not assessed the penalty at all.

But if this really is a self policing game, or at least policing within your group, the pros need to be stop being so self absorbed on the course and pay attention to when thier partner is doing something and have the balls to call them out. Yes there will be some ugly stuff at first, but pretty soon guys would know they are being watched by thier peers, and they will know exactly what to look for when it comes to the cheats like replacing your ball or moving twigs around your ball.

Yeah, I'm with you, but the sarcastic answer is that I'd like a unicorn for Christmas, too, while you're handing out make-believe gifts. :-)

You know as well as everyone here that this won't happen.

But we can all dream of the days when Tom Watson would call out Gary Player…

[Sean_A]

Nobody is suggesting  a player committing an infraction should be llowed to "get away with it".   Prior to the closing of the tournament if a player is found to have broken the rules (without resorting to tv viewers) a penalty is assessed.  The signing of an 18 hole scorecard doesn't effect this procedure in the slightest and therefore shouldn't used as a way to assess additional penalties.

Players sign cards to signify that this is the score they shot.

As I noted above, wiping away the two-stroke penalty wipes away an incentive to make sure that is correct and includes penalty strokes, which helps to ensure that players play under the Rules.

If there's no two-stroke penalty, there's no downside to not including a penalty. The worst case scenario is that you get the penalty you actually incurred, and no more. The upside potential is that you're not assessed the penalty at all.

I still don't get the getting away with deal.  A player is caught and assessed a penalty.  He didn't get away with it...he was assessed a penalty.  Pretty straight forward...deemed to have broken the rules, penalty assessed.  Anyway, hopefully most places will adopt the local rule in quick order and we can be done with this nonsense.

Ciao

[Mark Smolens]

For the most part I'm with Eric on this issue. I don't see why it's a good thing that rules officials are presumed to be all-knowing and omniscient. If someone else notices a rules violation, even if it's after the scorecard gets signed, aren't we supposed to be getting it right? Isn't that the goal, to get it right?

But, I'm also glad that the double penalty (or the even more draconian sanction of disqualification) is now eliminated. If the woman (sorry, can't recall her name) who hit the sand with her backswing in the Open didn't know that she had done so, she violated the rule but I just don't see why she should get penalized for signing an incorrect card. Yes, she touched the sand (or, Tiger dropped in the wrong spot, or Lexi mis-marked her ball). That's a penalty. Add the two strokes. But two more (or a DQ) for signing your card and not including a penalty you didn't know that you committed (and which wasn't discovered until after you signed) has never made sense to me.

[Kalen Braley]

A small part of me is a little confused with this issue.


I'm assuming most of us watch different sports.  Players get away with things all the time.  Calls are missed on occasion by the refs.  There isn't a game go by of any sport that doesn't have mistakes and we call this apart of the game.  Sure we've adopted replay for some limited situations in some of these games....but by and large we understand this is part of the game.


I guess I don't get the outrage when something extremely minor is missed in golf.  We justify it by saying that golf is different, golf is self-policing, golf is honorable, etc, etc".


Well last I checked golf is still in fact played by humans, ref'd by humans, organized by humans, and watched by humans.  Its not infallible...and it has more rules than any other I can think of outside of American Football.

[Thomas Dai]

So if using another players ball as a backstop were illegal under the RoG a call-in to report it wouldn’t now be accepted? Guess we’re fortunate it’s not a rule then!
atb

[jeffwarne]

A small part of me is a little confused with this issue.


I'm assuming most of us watch different sports.  Players get away with things all the time.  Calls are missed on occasion by the refs.  There isn't a game go by of any sport that doesn't have mistakes and we call this apart of the game.  Sure we've adopted replay for some limited situations in some of these games....but by and large we understand this is part of the game.


I guess I don't get the outrage when something extremely minor is missed in golf.  We justify it by saying that golf is different, golf is self-policing, golf is honorable, etc, etc".

+1
When they put a camera on EVERY shot, every tournament, every day from 4 different angles, with zoom capability for TV viewers, we'd never miss a call.
and at that point I will not recognize the game and have little interest.......

[Kalen Braley]

A small part of me is a little confused with this issue.


I'm assuming most of us watch different sports.  Players get away with things all the time.  Calls are missed on occasion by the refs.  There isn't a game go by of any sport that doesn't have mistakes and we call this apart of the game.  Sure we've adopted replay for some limited situations in some of these games....but by and large we understand this is part of the game.


I guess I don't get the outrage when something extremely minor is missed in golf.  We justify it by saying that golf is different, golf is self-policing, golf is honorable, etc, etc".

+1
When they put a camera on EVERY shot, every tournament, every day from 4 different angles, with zoom capability for TV viewers, we'd never miss a call.
and at that point I will not recognize the game and have little interest.......

Agreed Jeff


And if basketball, football, etc was under the same scrutiny that golfers face.  Where every player had a camera tuned in on just them, and every last micro movement was reviewed by officials and fans....the game would never finish.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I still don't get the getting away with deal.  A player is caught and assessed a penalty.  He didn't get away with it...he was assessed a penalty.  Pretty straight forward...deemed to have broken the rules, penalty assessed.  Anyway, hopefully most places will adopt the local rule in quick order and we can be done with this nonsense.

There's no incentive to get the score right the first time. In fact, you're now incentivized to be able to honestly reply "I didn't know," because knowledge and failure is still a DQ.

But, I'm also glad that the double penalty (or the even more draconian sanction of disqualification) is now eliminated. If the woman (sorry, can't recall her name) who hit the sand with her backswing in the Open didn't know that she had done so, she violated the rule but I just don't see why she should get penalized for signing an incorrect card.

FWIW:
a) she was alerted about a hole later.
b) that rule now requires the normal eyesight test, so now she wouldn't have been penalized at all.
c) Anna Nordquist

I'm assuming most of us watch different sports.  Players get away with things all the time.  Calls are missed on occasion by the refs.  There isn't a game go by of any sport that doesn't have mistakes and we call this apart of the game.  Sure we've adopted replay for some limited situations in some of these games....but by and large we understand this is part of the game.

In other sports players are not tasked with upholding the rules themselves. In many ways, they're trying to bend them as much as they can, to get away with as much as they can, to have an "if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'" mentality.

I don't want that in golf. Do you?

Comparing golf to other sports is a non-starter. Golf prides itself on the integrity of the players themselves. The PGA Tour has built a lot of their marketing on that image. Yet we're so far out of touch with Bobby Jones' comment about applauding a man for not robbing a bank that we've lost our way. We're now actively looking to excuse pros who break the rules, and those pros are throwing hissy fits when they're caught. Now we've removed the two-stroke incentive to get it right.

Ignorance of the rules is intentional. Every PGA Tour or LPGA Tour golfer chooses not to study and learn the Rules of the game.

I guess I don't get the outrage when something extremely minor is missed in golf.  We justify it by saying that golf is different, golf is self-policing, golf is honorable, etc, etc".

Why do you add the words "extremely minor"? Even a one-stroke penalty can change who wins a tournament and who finishes second.

[JohnH]

Ignorance of the rules is intentional. Every PGA Tour or LPGA Tour golfer chooses not to study and learn the Rules of the game.

If that is indeed the case, then therein lies the root of the problem. In a game where honesty, integrity, and self-policing is the very basis by which the game is predicated, knowing the rules verbatim is not only necessary but also mandatory. In my opinion each and every player of each tour should be mandated to know the rules, especially with millions of dollars at stake. If they don't, then they don't play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Ignorance of the rules is intentional. Every PGA Tour or LPGA Tour golfer chooses not to study and learn the Rules of the game.

If that is indeed the case, then therein lies the root of the problem. In a game where honesty, integrity, and self-policing is the very basis by which the game is predicated, knowing the rules verbatim is not only necessary but also mandatory. In my opinion each and every player of each tour should be mandated to know the rules, especially with millions of dollars at stake. If they don't, then they don't play.

Just another excuse to eliminate the best athletes from the game.


Is there any evidence that playing for money increases cheating? In my experience it limits it because cheaters never win. Seriously, if you cheat when playing for serious money you are literally putting your ass on the line.

[JohnH]

Ignorance of the rules is intentional. Every PGA Tour or LPGA Tour golfer chooses not to study and learn the Rules of the game.

If that is indeed the case, then therein lies the root of the problem. In a game where honesty, integrity, and self-policing is the very basis by which the game is predicated, knowing the rules verbatim is not only necessary but also mandatory. In my opinion each and every player of each tour should be mandated to know the rules, especially with millions of dollars at stake. If they don't, then they don't play.

Just another excuse to eliminate the best athletes from the game.


Is there any evidence that playing for money increases cheating? In my experience it limits it because cheaters never win. Seriously, if you cheat when playing for serious money you are literally putting your ass on the line.

My point is to make them earn it by going about the game the right way.

[Lou_Duran]

PGA Tour players have no problem spending hours practicing looking to save shots. Why wouldn’t they attend rules seminars to learn the rules and save shots? They’ve now even less reason to learn them.

The two USGA/PGA Rules Schools I attended had Tour caddies and officials in the audience.  They tended to sit in the back rows, didn't participate in the Q & A, and some were absent for periods of time.  I think that most Tour players and their caddies know the rules very well.  Calling an official for a ruling is less about not knowing what to do than an attempt to get a better deal and shift liability for a potential error.

I have doubts that golfers are more virtuous than most other groups of people.  The game encourages fair play- as opposed to soccer and basketball where teams often practice violating the rules without getting caught- but the opportunities for stretching the rules are many.  I've seen a relatively well-known journeyman clearly cheat in an early round of a PGA Tour event,  and I have had to refuse signing a scorecard as a marker in a club championship.  Lexi's marking method is hardly unique.  At the professional level, the more sets of trained eyes on a player the better, IMO.

[Kalen Braley]

The PGA Tour needs to decide at some point what they want.


Implement actual Integrity to the game and protect the field.... aka have officials follow every group and watch closely to enforce as much as possible


OR----


Continue with the status quo...

[Jon Wiggett]

The PGA Tour needs to decide at some point what they want.


Implement actual Integrity to the game and protect the field.... aka have officials follow every group and watch closely to enforce as much as possible


OR----


Continue with the status quo...

Kalen,


I agree that the tour needs to decide but think they should actually educate their members better on the rules and why they need to be implemented/how they need to be implemented but also in ensuring pace of play. Golf should not go down the line of having referees who enforce the rules as this would inevitable lead to the end of any serious club golf competition. The integrity of the game is based up on players voluntarily following the rules.  This will inevitably lead to some mistakes from time to time but if this is the price that is paid for maintaining the game then so be it.


However, it does require the consequential enforcement of the rules regardless of who it is.


Jon

[Bruce Katona]

Football, American Football & Baseball all have video review - it was supposed to help the officials get the correct call; though the jury is out especially regarding both footballs (FIFA/UEFA are the biggest jokes on organized sports outside of the IOC).  I can call in any weekend and complain about football (plural) rulings for offsides/red cards and all sorts of penalties - the chances of them stopping the game or reversing the outcome are...................non-existent.


Currently I can sit on my couch with my feet up and watch HD extra slow-motion of a golf ball moving a dimple, call it in and the participant can be penalized the following day......really logical.  For once the blue blazers used some common sense and called a halt to a practice which had gotten completely out-of-hand.

[jeffwarne]

  For once the blue blazers used some common sense and called a halt to a practice which had gotten completely out-of-hand.

There's that phrase again...beware the green ink

[Kalen Braley]

Jon,


You said:


Golf should not go down the line of having referees who enforce the rules as this would inevitable lead to the end of any serious club golf competition.
[/color]

I'm curious why you think having dedicated officials would kill the PGA Tour?  Remember, we're not talking about club championships or other lower level competitive golf.  I see the scope of this as the PGA, European, LPGA and Nationwide Tour.

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