No more call-ins!

[JLahrman]

I'm more on Erik's side than I thought I would be when this discussion started. But...

Please, share the name of ANY caller-in. Where's the fame if nobody even knows who these people are? For all you know, a fellow rules official "called in" the Lexi penalty. Or Craig Stadler's penalty in 1987.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/mystery-masters-tv-caller-in-tiger-woods-rules-fiasco-reveal


Is there a prize?

[Niall C]

So, the next time Lexi Thomson cheats, and yes she did cheat (even Stevie Wonder could spot that one), and her playing partners happen to be facing the other way or paying attention to something else as is the scorer/tournament ref etc., are the Rules Officials sitting back in the clubhouse really going to ignore a phonecall from someone pointing out what happened ?

If that's the case then the TV companies are going to love it as they report the scandal of the authorities unwillingness to do anything. Or is it more likely the Rules Officials will simply log the call, review the evidence and then call it as they deem appropriate while denying that anyone brought it to their attention ?

Niall

ps. agree 100% with Erik

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm more on Erik's side than I thought I would be when this discussion started. But...

Please, share the name of ANY caller-in. Where's the fame if nobody even knows who these people are? For all you know, a fellow rules official "called in" the Lexi penalty. Or Craig Stadler's penalty in 1987.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/mystery-masters-tv-caller-in-tiger-woods-rules-fiasco-reveal


Is there a prize?

There is always a place at the table for a tattler.

[Kalen Braley]

I hate to say it, but maybe the Tour needs to adopt some kinda Full Metal Jacket solution.


When Private Pyle was screwing up, he wasn't punished, the rest of his platoon was....and then they took the matters in thier own hands to fix the issue.


Give the playing partners some kind of responsibility in this thing, and you bet your ass they will self police.

[jeffwarne]

I'm more on Erik's side than I thought I would be when this discussion started. But...

Please, share the name of ANY caller-in. Where's the fame if nobody even knows who these people are? For all you know, a fellow rules official "called in" the Lexi penalty. Or Craig Stadler's penalty in 1987.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/mystery-masters-tv-caller-in-tiger-woods-rules-fiasco-reveal


Is there a prize?

There is always a place at the table for a tattler.

 
Teacher-teacher! You forgot the homework.

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


There is no rate of return for cheating on tour or at golf in general. If caught it follows you for a lifetime.

[John Kavanaugh]

I find no pleasure in the fact that most golfers don't putt everything out and eat lemon drops like candy. All in the name of fast play. Let's not call out the best players in the game until we quit cheating ourselves.

[Rick Lane]

I think there are two issues being debated here?   One is that there are no more "call ins" from couch people, and they are assigning Rules people to watch TV instead, right? 

The second issue is the deletion of the second penalty for signing an incorrect card, which I agree with Erik, leads to the motivation to play dumb, since all you get is the penalty you would have had in the first place.

So for me, if they got rid of the couch potato call-in, yet kept the double penalty, I think that's a better outcome?

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,


There is no rate of return for cheating on tour or at golf in general. If caught it follows you for a lifetime.

Phil says he sees players on the PGATour mark the ball like Lexi all the time.  While he didn't name names, it sure seems it does pay off.


I will admit that it doesn't seem to be a wide spread issue, but to think guys aren't getting away with stuff from time to time and prospering is naive at best.


On the larger scale, I don't see the whole rules enforcement thing in the same light as most here.  I think honor and all the beard pulling talk is just to rationalize the fact that golf is difficult to officiate given the massive size of the playing field, which pretty much every other sport doesn't have to deal with.  From what I see in the pro game, the players seems to approach the rules in terms of what they can get away with, not to keep things on the square....

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  I still think there's one issue that hasn't really been addressed, and that is the concept of an "un-interested observer".


The player and his partner, no doubt has his own self interests in mind, and even the most trusted/honest PGA tour player still has some sort of bias if it involves them directly. And a fan might be less interested in calling a potential violation if it involves thier favorite player...


If for no other reason, this would be reason enough to involve official enforcement on Tour from rules officials...

[jeffwarne]

P.S.  I still think there's one issue that hasn't really been addressed, and that is the concept of an "un-interested observer".


The player and his partner, no doubt has his own self interests in mind, and even the most trusted/honest PGA tour player still has some sort of bias if it involves them directly. And a fan might be less interested in calling a potential violation if it involves thier favorite player...


If for no other reason, this would be reason enough to involve official enforcement on Tour from rules officials...

You mean like a gambler who observes an infraction, sits on it overnight, and calls it in on the 12th hole of a major with the player he did NOT pick to win suddenly getting 4 shots-and ultimately losing in a playoff.(or doesn't call it in if it involves his player)
Nah...couldn't happen.


Let's be sure to protect his interests rather than just a bit of common sense

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,


You said:


Golf should not go down the line of having referees who enforce the rules as this would inevitable lead to the end of any serious club golf competition.


I'm curious why you think having dedicated officials would kill the PGA Tour?  Remember, we're not talking about club championships or other lower level competitive golf.  I see the scope of this as the PGA, European, LPGA and Nationwide Tour.

Kalen,


I did not say dedicated official but referee. Nor did I say it would kill the PGA Tour but said it would be the end of serious club golf. Please try reading what I said


If you have referees enforcing the rules rather than the golfer voluntarily implementing them it will lead to players trying to hoodwink the referees as with other sports. As club golfers tend to copy what they see on television this would mean club competitions would need a referee with each group which is not going to happen.


People who cannot tolerate players making the odd mistake with the rules need to get over themselves. It is unrealistic to expect a professional golfer to get it right 100% if even rules officials who don't even have to worry about playing do not always get it right all the time as the Dustin Johnson debacle showed.


Life is not perfect


Jon

[Kalen Braley]

Jon,


In context, I meant the same thing, even if it came out different.  A dedicated referee/official that follows each group to watch over play.


My apologies on the 2nd part, I skipped right over the club part. However, I still don't see how this would be a deterrent.  Ive played in many informal basketball, football, and baseball games without officials/refs.  We still hashed it out and played the game to conclusion.  I can't imagine why club play couldn't still use this model. 


P.S.  If the clubs that can afford it, want to have some guys come out and officiate stroke play for the club championship, then by all means they should. 

[BHoover]

I have to say I’m not totally opposed to call-ins. It keeps the players honest because you never know who’s watching. It also has the effect of connecting fans with the game because they are part of the action.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have to say I’m not totally opposed to call-ins. It keeps the players honest because you never know who’s watching. It also has the effect of connecting fans with the game because they are part of the action.

Douche town called and they want their +1 back.

[jeffwarne]

I have to say I’m not totally opposed to call-ins. It keeps the players honest because you never know who’s watching. It also has the effect of connecting fans with the game because they are part of the action.

Douche town called and they want their +1 back.

I'm cleaning the coffee off my laptop...

[Erik J. Barzeski]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/mystery-masters-tv-caller-in-tiger-woods-rules-fiasco-reveal

Eger called during play. He’s the reason Tiger wasn’t DQed. The committee supposedly met and declared no penalty.

I was actually the one who called and got Tiger the extra four. Tiger said he dropped two yards back. I got in touch with a Rules official on the grounds and alerted him to what was said. I wanted Tiger to win… fairly. Imagine the stink if he had won by 1 with that drop and what he had said about it?

And yeah I should have excluded Eger. Name another from a different incident. Point is callers aren’t fame seekers.

[jeffwarne]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/mystery-masters-tv-caller-in-tiger-woods-rules-fiasco-reveal

Eger called during play. He’s the reason Tiger wasn’t DQed. The committee supposedly met and declared no penalty.

I was actually the one who called and got Tiger the extra four. Tiger said he dropped two yards back. I got in touch with a Rules official on the grounds and alerted him to what was said.

And yeah I should have excluded Eger. Name another from a different incident.

Isn't it ironic that a guy who played in 58 PGA Tour events, regained his amateur status(while working in the golf business of course)
then won the US Mid Am, with repeat high US Am finishes  and then turned pro AGAIN to win multiple times on the Champions Tour.
..............Would have the balls to call out anyone for a TV rules violation


makes Lexi look like small potatos

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Isn't it ironic that a guy who played in 58 PGA Tour events, regained his amateur status(while working in the golf business of course)
then won the US Mid Am, with repeat high US Am finishes  and then turned pro AGAIN to win multiple times on the Champions Tour.
..............Would have the balls to call out anyone for a TV rules violation

FWIW I didn't do any of those things. And no, I don't find Eger's resume "ironic."

You know what strikes me as "common sense"? That a player who commits a penalty be given that penalty regardless of who sees it first. It's "common sense" to me that a tournament strive to be as accurate as possible. It's "common sense" to me that a golfer not gain a benefit from choosing not to know the Rules of the game that has provided a nice living for them.

With the elimination of the two-stroke penalty, players have no real downside to not including a penalty in their score, particularly if they can honestly say "I don't know the rules very well, so no, I didn't know that was a penalty."

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,


In context, I meant the same thing, even if it came out different.  A dedicated referee/official that follows each group to watch over play.


My apologies on the 2nd part, I skipped right over the club part. However, I still don't see how this would be a deterrent.  Ive played in many informal basketball, football, and baseball games without officials/refs.  We still hashed it out and played the game to conclusion.  I can't imagine why club play couldn't still use this model. 


P.S.  If the clubs that can afford it, want to have some guys come out and officiate stroke play for the club championship, then by all means they should.

Kalen,


so how does what you are proposing differ from the present situation?


The leading groups already have an official following them and yet still situations such as the DJ US Open debacle occur. I doubt that the PGA Tour has the will to train and pay so many officials to follow the tour week in week out. Finally, it would just lead the players to referring to the official on every little thing slowing down the already snail pace of play.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

On-course rules officials -


I appreciate that competitions have long had committees to decide on disputes etc but when did on-course rules officials start to appear at events?
Was there a particular incident that caused them to become more prevalent or has their existence just kind of morphed or evolved into what now seems standard practice over the decades?
Just curious as to the history.
atb

[jeffwarne]

With the elimination of the two-stroke penalty, players have no real downside to not including a penalty in their score, particularly if they can honestly say "I don't know the rules very well, so no, I didn't know that was a penalty."

agreed a slippery slope

[JESII]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/mystery-masters-tv-caller-in-tiger-woods-rules-fiasco-reveal

Eger called during play. He’s the reason Tiger wasn’t DQed. The committee supposedly met and declared no penalty.

I was actually the one who called and got Tiger the extra four. Tiger said he dropped two yards back. I got in touch with a Rules official on the grounds and alerted him to what was said. I wanted Tiger to win… fairly. Imagine the stink if he had won by 1 with that drop and what he had said about it?

And yeah I should have excluded Eger. Name another from a different incident. Point is callers aren’t fame seekers.

Bamberger with Michelle Wie...embarrassing for him.

[JESII]

Administering these call-in rules issues is ugly, looks bad, and never helps a telecast. That's why this announcement was made.


When someone calls in a violation next year, the organizing body of that even will be able to say they have it internally. No sweat. The goal is, and has always been, to get it right. This announcement doesn't reduce that goal, or chances of attaining it.






Erik, I think you're overstating the notion that a player may not disclose a potential situation, under this new guideline, simply because the risk of viewer call-in is lower/eliminated. There are players that go to, or beyond, the edge now and there will be in the future. Their reputation goes with them. The ultimate onus is on that player and his marker to get it right.


The best case scenario would be to find an incentive for the players to protect the field...but in the chummy club that the Tour has become, not even the rules officials have the incentive to protect the field.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

When someone calls in a violation next year, the organizing body of that even will be able to say they have it internally. No sweat. The goal is, and has always been, to get it right. This announcement doesn't reduce that goal, or chances of attaining it.

Hopefully that's how it's going to go.

Erik, I think you're overstating the notion that a player may not disclose a potential situation, under this new guideline, simply because the risk of viewer call-in is lower/eliminated. There are players that go to, or beyond, the edge now and there will be in the future. Their reputation goes with them. The ultimate onus is on that player and his marker to get it right.

That has more to do with the elimination of the additional two strokes, and so that affects EVERY level of golf. So my comments there aren't necessarily directed at the PGA Tour (or other pro tours), but rather at golf in general, where you can plead ignorant and most likely get away with stuff. Junior golf, in particular, seems rife with cheaters these days.

The best case scenario would be to find an incentive for the players to protect the field...but in the chummy club that the Tour has become, not even the rules officials have the incentive to protect the field.

I agree.