[Jim Hoak]

Does anyone have a picture of the original in France?

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:


Your best bet on trying to figure out which hole at Biarritz CBM drew his inspiration from will come from sifting through this thread:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html


Sven

[MLevesque]

Yale's Biarritz 9th kills all the others mentioned here due to the scale, setting and visual effect.   It also has the deepest trench of the all the Biarritz "style" greens that I have actually played - it must be over 6 feet deep.

Yale's Biarritz 9th is truly majestic.  My only criticism is in the usual pin placement.   Typically in the front section; probably in deference to pace of play.  I feel the true essence of the Yale's Biarritz emerges when it plays it's full length;230 yards, over the pond through.over the trench to a back pin.

[Jeff Schley]

There is one at the Royal Golf Club in Bahrain, a Montgomerie layout.  It is a medium length par 3, can't remember the hole.  Love it when the pin is down in the gultch!

[Kyle Harris]

The 16th at Armand Hammer Golf Course in Holmby Park, LA, California.

[Cal Seifert]

No other biarritz hole excites first time players like the 9th at Yale.  It is on the biggest scale with the most heroic shot required.  The only downside is the water and elevation of the tee box limit the low running shot that CBM originally intended for the template to play as.

[Adam Lawrence]

There is one at the Royal Golf Club in Bahrain, a Montgomerie layout.  It is a medium length par 3, can't remember the hole.  Love it when the pin is down in the gultch!

GCAer Robin Hiseman actually designed the course. Very fine work, and some extremely bold greens.

[Jeff Schley]

There is one at the Royal Golf Club in Bahrain, a Montgomerie layout.  It is a medium length par 3, can't remember the hole.  Love it when the pin is down in the gultch!

GCAer Robin Hiseman actually designed the course. Very fine work, and some extremely bold greens.

Interesting, they don't seem to mention him anywhere, but push Montgomerie.  I think Monty only did the redesign and Robin must have done the original design?

[Robin_Hiseman]

Jeff

I did the design work for the new course, under the banner of Colin Montgomerie Design, which had a contract with my employer, European Golf Design, through his affiliation with IMG. I hope that's clear!

I think the green you mention might be the 16th, which has a pronounced double plateau, or it could be the 7th, which is high to the left and right of a narrow cleft in the rear centre of the green.

[Jeff Schley]

Jeff

I did the design work for the new course, under the banner of Colin Montgomerie Design, which had a contract with my employer, European Golf Design, through his affiliation with IMG. I hope that's clear!

I think the green you mention might be the 16th, which has a pronounced double plateau, or it could be the 7th, which is high to the left and right of a narrow cleft in the rear centre of the green.

Robin

Sorry didn't mean to discount your contribution as I wasn't aware of the particulars in who was involved, just see they push his name.  I rather enjoy the course and just played it recently, it has held up rather well.

It is the 16th yes, which does have 2 large plateaus that never seem to be able to capture my shots and funnel them to the flag as I hope.

[john_stiles]

If not noted above,  the Biarritz at Black Creek has a new back tee extending the hole to 243. Black Creek is now owned by a group of locals.  And Doug put in a new back tee at 243. Previously it was less than 200.  Black Creek has the front as green and the dip is enormous on the scale of Yale.


As to the Raynor in Chattanooga,  the 4th at Lookout Mountain has a biarritz.  It has a fairway front, the dip, and then the green.  Deep bunkers are left and right of the green.   Not being able to hit a more lofted club from about 224,  I often play a shot to bounce in.  The fairway portion does not guarantee a straight bounce but it is not a hogsback fairway.   Raynor's drawing shows flanking bunkers along the side of the fairway portion but those were not built in 1926.  However, Gil Hanse's proposed work (2009) would put back a portion of the flanking bunkers.  The proposed work is not likely to happen anytime soon.

[Jeff_Brauer]

No need to rank them, but will note mine at Fortune Bay in MN rivals the one at Yale for depth of swale.  So deep and shady, they take bets on when the ice in the valley will melt.  That is on a short par 4, and frankly, I think they work better their or on a par 5 easily reachable in two.


I had another one on a long par 4 in Texas, very geometrical in the Raynor style, sadly NLE.  I also have one on a par 3 is south Texas, but its not long enough to bring the running feature into play, so its just a different version of a two section green.


I am often told that "no one likes" those holes, to which I respond, "Well, its my favorite."

[MLevesque]

The problem with the Biarritz template today (and probably the reason many don't like (or appreciate) the concept) is that the modern game has pretty much made obsolete the way in which CBM intended the hole to be played.  As with all of his template concepts, you have to remember that he was trying to test a variety of shots over the course of a round, believing that the ideal course was going to demand well-rounded skill from the golfer.


Just as the Short hole demands a very precise lofted shot to a specific portion of the green, the Biarritz demanded a long running approach that would hold its line, and would be struck so that the run out would traverse the "hogsback" and feed to the green itself.  These terms have all become a bit muddled, as Raynor and Banks later started grassing the front portion (the hogsback) as green, perhaps in an effort to enable the run out aspect of the shot.


Today, many players are flying their shots well past the hogsback, and when pinned in the front are even stopping their shots on that section.  In this way, CBM's intent has been lost, as that manner of play has made the long running shot unnecessary.  It is of interest to note that the player that doesn't have that long carry shot is staying true to the hole's intent when they are able to judge the bounce and run shot correctly.


It would be nice to think that the Biarritz template intent could be made relevant today if the length of those holes could be adjusted to modern distances.  A 200 yard Biarritz in 1920 would probably need another 60 or 70 yards to make it relevant for today's better players, and the course would need to be maintained firm enough to allow for the roll.


In short, anytime you step up to a "Biarritz Style" hole, or a hole with a "Biarritz Style" green, and you are not trying to run the ball to the hole location, you are not playing a Biarritz as CBM intended it.

Sven, well said.  Today, Yale's Biarritz can be played with a hard 7 iron to a front pin position and on those very rare days (sadly) you can fly a hybrid to the back position.  The low running shot is not currently part of our modern American game.

[Cal Seifert]

The problem with the Biarritz template today (and probably the reason many don't like (or appreciate) the concept) is that the modern game has pretty much made obsolete the way in which CBM intended the hole to be played.  As with all of his template concepts, you have to remember that he was trying to test a variety of shots over the course of a round, believing that the ideal course was going to demand well-rounded skill from the golfer.


Just as the Short hole demands a very precise lofted shot to a specific portion of the green, the Biarritz demanded a long running approach that would hold its line, and would be struck so that the run out would traverse the "hogsback" and feed to the green itself.  These terms have all become a bit muddled, as Raynor and Banks later started grassing the front portion (the hogsback) as green, perhaps in an effort to enable the run out aspect of the shot.


Today, many players are flying their shots well past the hogsback, and when pinned in the front are even stopping their shots on that section.  In this way, CBM's intent has been lost, as that manner of play has made the long running shot unnecessary.  It is of interest to note that the player that doesn't have that long carry shot is staying true to the hole's intent when they are able to judge the bounce and run shot correctly.


It would be nice to think that the Biarritz template intent could be made relevant today if the length of those holes could be adjusted to modern distances.  A 200 yard Biarritz in 1920 would probably need another 60 or 70 yards to make it relevant for today's better players, and the course would need to be maintained firm enough to allow for the roll.


In short, anytime you step up to a "Biarritz Style" hole, or a hole with a "Biarritz Style" green, and you are not trying to run the ball to the hole location, you are not playing a Biarritz as CBM intended it.

Sven, well said.  Today, Yale's Biarritz can be played with a hard 7 iron to a front pin position and on those very rare days (sadly) you can fly a hybrid to the back position.  The low running shot is not currently part of our modern American game.

7 iron?!? I put my 5 iron in the drink on that hole.  From the start this biarritz always played differently than others due to the carry over water instead of a running approach along the contours of the ground.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Rod Whitman's #2 at Cabot Links.  It plays 230 from the Green tees or 247 from the Blacks.  That is a driver or hard three wood for me that ideally runs up to the pin if it is at the back.  There are few more rewarding things in golf than to see your ball run through the swale and come to rest close to the pin.

[Sean_A]

The problem with the Biarritz template today (and probably the reason many don't like (or appreciate) the concept) is that the modern game has pretty much made obsolete the way in which CBM intended the hole to be played.  As with all of his template concepts, you have to remember that he was trying to test a variety of shots over the course of a round, believing that the ideal course was going to demand well-rounded skill from the golfer.


Just as the Short hole demands a very precise lofted shot to a specific portion of the green, the Biarritz demanded a long running approach that would hold its line, and would be struck so that the run out would traverse the "hogsback" and feed to the green itself.  These terms have all become a bit muddled, as Raynor and Banks later started grassing the front portion (the hogsback) as green, perhaps in an effort to enable the run out aspect of the shot.


Today, many players are flying their shots well past the hogsback, and when pinned in the front are even stopping their shots on that section.  In this way, CBM's intent has been lost, as that manner of play has made the long running shot unnecessary.  It is of interest to note that the player that doesn't have that long carry shot is staying true to the hole's intent when they are able to judge the bounce and run shot correctly.


It would be nice to think that the Biarritz template intent could be made relevant today if the length of those holes could be adjusted to modern distances.  A 200 yard Biarritz in 1920 would probably need another 60 or 70 yards to make it relevant for today's better players, and the course would need to be maintained firm enough to allow for the roll.


In short, anytime you step up to a "Biarritz Style" hole, or a hole with a "Biarritz Style" green, and you are not trying to run the ball to the hole location, you are not playing a Biarritz as CBM intended it.

Sven, well said.  Today, Yale's Biarritz can be played with a hard 7 iron to a front pin position and on those very rare days (sadly) you can fly a hybrid to the back position.  The low running shot is not currently part of our modern American game.

Speak for yourself.  I am not flying 7 irons some 180 yards.  Even if I were, a front hole location on a B is an extremely small target.

I have only played one official B at Yeamans.  It (and the concept) must have been incredibly difficult back in the day.  My immediate thought was the concept would work better if the player had to earn the best angle of approach with his tee shot.  The green is so narrow that it would be incredibly fun to "recover" from the fairway. 

So far as I know, there was no original B.  I think the idea came from a hole at Biarritz in the guise of a hole played over a chasm which was quite similar to Yale's B.

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

So far as I know, there was no original B.  I think the idea came from a hole at Biarritz in the guise of a hole played over a chasm. The concept was scaled down to include the chasm as part of the green. 

Sean:


We've covered the origins of the Biarritz template in great detail on this site.  It had nothing to do with a chasm.


Sven

[Jim Nugent]

Sean, there was a chasm hole at the Biarritz course (for awhile), but it was not the hole CBM based his Biarritz on. 

On a course that featured some pretty wild holes, the cliff hole at Biarritz look wildest to me. 

[Sean_A]

That is news to me.  I was long under the impression that the Biarritz was a version of the Chasm hole at Biarritz, playing over water to a green on an outcrop of land. Are you saying there was a Chasm hole AND another hole which the template Biarritz was named after?  Thats interesting because it goes against the grain of Uncle George.  Its also interesting because I wonder how in the heck a 175 yard carry worked pre 1900?  Anyway, it would be cool to see pix of the proper Biarritz hole...have any?

Ciao

[Mark McKeever]

Gibson Island, may it rest in peace.

[Sven Nilsen]

That is news to me.  I was long under the impression that the Biarritz was a version of the Chasm hole at Biarritz, playing over water to a green on an outcrop of land. Are you saying there was a Chasm hole AND another hole which the template Biarritz was named after?  Thats interesting because it goes against the grain of Uncle George.  Its also interesting because I wonder how in the heck a 175 yard carry worked pre 1900?  Anyway, it would be cool to see pix of the proper Biarritz hole...have any?

Ciao

That's what we're saying, and that is what CBM said that the inspiration for the template was the 12th hole at Biarritz.  Not only was the Chasm Hole never anywhere near the back 9 of Biarritz, it was gone by the time CBM saw the course.  Bahto had it wrong.

[Sean_A]

That is news to me.  I was long under the impression that the Biarritz was a version of the Chasm hole at Biarritz, playing over water to a green on an outcrop of land. Are you saying there was a Chasm hole AND another hole which the template Biarritz was named after?  Thats interesting because it goes against the grain of Uncle George.  Its also interesting because I wonder how in the heck a 175 yard carry worked pre 1900?  Anyway, it would be cool to see pix of the proper Biarritz hole...have any?

Ciao

That's what we're saying, and that is what CBM said that the inspiration for the template was the 12th hole at Biarritz.  Not only was the Chasm Hole never anywhere near the back 9 of Biarritz, it was gone by the time CBM saw the course.  Bahto had it wrong.

Sven

Excellent!  I never got my head wrapped around the carry distance as 150 yards would have been quite long back in the day.  Is there any photographic evidence of the 12th as CBM and his sidekick (forget his name HH something) may have seen it?

So, where did the idea of the Chasm Hole as the model for the Biarritz come from if CBM named the 12th hole as the inspiration?  They seem like totally different concepts, the Chasm and Biarritz.  Is it simply a matter of thinking the Biarritz template came from Biarritz and the most famous hole hole was Chasm...so... Or perhaps the Yale version threw people off? Very interesting stuff even if I am not a big fan of the B concept.  Thinking on it though, probably a significant number of golfers couldn't reach a B green so it likely did play it as a short 4.

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

Sean:


If you have the time, you might want to give this thread a look over:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21926.0.html


Sven

[Jim Nugent]

In the thread about "Reiterating Raynor," Sven posted an article from 1919, which said St. Louis CC's second green (Biarritz) was over 60 yards long.  Just like today.  I think that means the swale and approach had to be part of the green, also just like today. 

The article came out just five years after the course opened.  Real hard for me to imagine the club took it upon itself to radically change CBM's design, only a few years after play started.  i.e. I believe this means MacRaynor designed the Biarritz at SLCC to contain the swale. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:


If you read back earlier in this thread, I mentioned the same thing about Piping Rock.


But that doesn't mean CBM or Raynor (or Banks for that matter) ever intended for the pin to be put on the front section.


It doesn't fit with the intended shot the hole asked for, as clearly delineated by CBM in his writings.


Here's a 1921 map of St. Louis CC.  Notice where the pin is drawn on every hole, right in the middle, except for the Biarritz where its drawn in the middle of the back section.


Sven

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()