[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Sven:


Do you definitively that Raynor built a Biarritz with the front portion as green? When Yale opened it was fairway.


Anthony

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Bob:


I believe the hog's back refers to the swale.


Anthony

[BCrosby]

Tony - Hmmm.


Whigham's description of the hole:


"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."
I read him to be saying that there is a "dip" (what we would call a swale) "between the hog's back and the green" (by "green" I take him to mean the the back tier/putting surface).
I think of a hog's back as a convex (not a concave) feature? If so, the above suggests that you hit your ball up and over the hog's back, then down through the "dip", then up to the "green".

Confused, Bob

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Interesting. Only features I've seen that would approach a Hog's Back are the two ridges at Fishers. The front portion of Yale looks dead flat in the early photos.

[Eric Hammerbacher]

Does anyone have any input /opinion on the Biarritz at Elkridge Hunt Club?  There is a small thumbprint feature in the front green portion, which seems that if you land there, the ball dies and doesn't release to the back.  I'm thinking this was added during the Silva restoration?  However, the swale is huge and it was a ton of fun.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:


Do you definitively that Raynor built a Biarritz with the front portion as green? When Yale opened it was fairway.


Anthony

Yes, and not only Raynor but CBM as well.  Here is a 1913 description of the recently opened Piping Rock:


"The ninth is a very uncommon hole.  I have never seen one like it.  There are two greens, one beyond the other, with a hollow between them and serious trouble on either side in the shape of bunkers.  It must be 220 yards (I speak from memory) from tee to the center of the farthest green.  It is slightly down hill, so that one can see exactly what there is to do.  It will take a fine clerk shot or a difficult drive with a wooden club by a second class player, as the gulley which separates the two greens must be run through at the end of the shot."

[Ron Coker]

My favorite Biarritz is #8 of Old MacDonald at Bandon. It’s a large green which I do not find problematic.  What is the optimal size of a Biarritz?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Sven:


Where is that quote from? What Raynor courses had the entire complex as greens?


Ron: not sure there is an optimal size. Betting 12,000-square feet is a good place to start.


Anthony

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:


Where is that quote from? What Raynor courses had the entire complex as greens?


Ron: not sure there is an optimal size. Betting 12,000-square feet is a good place to start.


Anthony

The quote is from the Nov. 1913 edition of Golf Magazine.


There's a distinction to be made in this conversation.  I do not think that any of these guys thought the area in front of the swale should be pinned.  I do, however, think that some of these courses may have had that front section (or hogsback or whatever you want to call it) built and/or maintained like a green surface.  The written description of Piping Rock is one example, and despite the article you found to the contrary, the early photos of Yale indicate it was maintained that way as well.


Yale is an interesting case in many regards, as it is a variation on the theme due to both the elevation change and the presence of water. 

[Bill Brightly]

Sven, thanks for posting CBM's quote about Piping Rock's Biarritz. Was that in Scotland's Gift?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

A story in the Hartford Courant on the opening of Yale refers to the front tier as "fair green." It may have been changed shortly after opening especially since the design would have prevented a horse-drawn or engine-powered fairway unit from getting onto the part of the hole.

Sven, that is an interesting thought, though, that the front portion could be mowed as green but the intent was never to put a flag there.

What really strikes me as odd about the holes are how dead flat most of the front portions are. Yale is a prime example. Fishers seems to be the anomaly, lots of movement in the front plateau and also angled back to front so severely that even in 1925 it could not have been used as a green.

Shoreacres, Westhampton, Yale, Blind Brook all have flat approaches. Blind Brook's front tier runs front to back and it meets the Macdonald description, in reverse, of Biarritz in Outing. "... bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green." Blind Brook is bunkered left, with good low ground right and right beyond that the actual Blind Brook. It is also a downhill tee shot like many others.

Dedham is a one-tier Biarritz. Wanumetonomy does not have a Biarritz, possibly Raynor's only 18-hole layout without one.

As far as good ones, the Biarritz at Black Creek is wonderful.

[Ira Fishman]

Old White #3 is a great one. Or at least was--I have not played it since the restoration after the tragic flooding.


Ira

[Bradley Anderson]

I have wondered if the same mower was often used in these situations, but with less frequency of cut?

The same mower that cut the putting surface 4-5 times a week could have been used to cut the approach area 1-2 times per week. Same man, on the same route, but with a longer routine in his assignment.

With the quality of cut that you would have gotten from those older mowers, this would have the same effect that we get today by using one mower at an 1/8th of an inch for the putting surface and a second mower at 3/8's of an inch for the approach cut.

If my guess on this is right, it would caution us against drawing conclusions from old photos and possibly even the various journalistic accounts that described these areas. If the photo is taken on the day of a tournament or a showcase day, you would be seeing these approach areas, in places like the front section of a Biarritz green, with the appearance of being one continuous cut. YOur man would have been instructed to cut everything on that day. You would assume then that it is a part of the putting surface.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Interesting point, Bradley and that makes me realize that I have never seen a historic photo of a Biarritz with the hole location in the front portion of the green.

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is an article from August 1922 USGA Green Section regarding approaches.  This is just one example from the Denver Country Club, but it gives a good sense of how some of the superintendents of the day viewed the concept:



Here is a link to the full article for those who would like to read it:
http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/1920s/1922/2208240.pdf


Personally, I prefer when only the rear portion is pinned and the front portion is mowed at approach height.  I feel like this gives the player more options at recovery. You can try to chip over the swale or hit a low runner through the swale or hit a really hard putt.


My favorite is Fishers Island.


Bret

[Bill Brightly]

The pin should NEVER be placed on the front section. The ONLY exception I have seen is Old Macdonald, which might be viewed as a neat dropdown par 3 with a front pin.


The rest of the Biarritz holes are simply crappy, boring short holes played to a pancake flat putting surface with a front pin placement. That is a Monday outing placement only... And even then I'd be worried that the outing sponsor would be annoyed...


There should be ZERO doubt that CB Macdonald, a man who searched the world for great holes,  would disapprove of front pin placements on today's Biarritz holes.


Playing a Biarritz to a front pin is like going on a date with Kate Upton an ONLY looking at the neck up...

[Jim Nugent]

Do you definitively that Raynor built a Biarritz with the front portion as green? When Yale opened it was fairway.

I'm not sure that's right about Yale, and in fact the opposite may be more likely.  Scott Ramsey, Yale green keeper, believes the front was always green.  A few years ago, on another thread about Yale #9, Mark Bourgeois summarized some of Scott's thoughts:   

"* 1926 photos showing hand mowing of green front and back
* video of the 1934 CT open showing maintained green front and back
* soil profiles showing the front and back of 9 are the same -- layer of greens mix on top of a charcoal layer both front and back, no where else is there a charcoal layer on fairway, approach or teeing ground on the YGC."

Mark also said, "Scott's argument was that the comments back then were semantic, like a false front on a green. The "true" green is in the back but it all has been green. He said greens in 1926 would be considered fairway height turf on some of today's highly managed golf courses."

 

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Why didn't the Biarritz make the cut at NGLA? I assume Piping Rock was where it was first introduced?

[Bill Brightly]

Do you definitively that Raynor built a Biarritz with the front portion as green? When Yale opened it was fairway.

I'm not sure that's right about Yale, and in fact the opposite may be more likely.  Scott Ramsey, Yale green keeper, believes the front was always green.  A
 

Jim, we have been through this many times. Most notably with Pat Mucci who took Scott's discovery of charcoal under the approach as "proof" that the front section at Yale's approach was actually intended to be pinnable. I reject that theory and Charles Banks' writings clearly explain the the green proper was beyond the swale.


We have to use common sense here. The underlying challenge that CBM wanted to present to the golfer was a long par three that required a low running shot through the swale. His par threes had four VERY distinct distances to fully test a golfer's ability. Why would he want "an alternative hole" with VASTLY inferior shot value and much shorter length?


How they decided to construct the approach at Yale's Biarritz is irrelevant. And that one of Yale's first superintendents chose to mow the grass short and place pins up front should not be surprising. It LOOKS like a green, so let's put a pin there... Spreads the wear, yada yada yada. The superintendent at my Banks course does it once or twice a week...But the hole is SOOO weak with a front pin, SOOO much less challenging than a back pin. Who in their right mind could think Charles Blair Macdonald would tolerate such nonsense?

[Jim Nugent]

Bill, pretty sure I've read that scores are higher at Yale #9 when the pin is in front as opposed to the back. 

IIRC in that thread with Pat you finally agreed the green might have been built to include the swale and front part.  Or did you just get tired of arguing against green wave after green wave? 

[Bill Brightly]

No No NO! I agreed that the APPROACH might have been constructed with the same techniques used on other putting surfaces. I never agreed that Macdonald and Raynor envisioned a hole being cut into the approach... Those are the kind of changes that get made when control of a project is turned over to others.


Whether that change happened before Yale opened or shortly thereafter we will never know. But what I DO know is that the approach LOOKS like a green, so we should not be surprised when front sections begin to get maintained as greens and pins get put there.

[Bill Brightly]

Why didn't the Biarritz make the cut at NGLA? I assume Piping Rock was where it was first introduced?

George Bahto believed that CBM did not find the right landforms at NGLA to build a Biarritz. So Piping Rock was the first time he introduced the concept.

[Jim Nugent]

Bill, the History of Yale Golf says Raynor was at the course during the entire construction process, supervising it from start to finish.  So if #9 opened with the green including the swale, as I think it did, seems like Raynor had to know about it.  Would someone really have gone against his design and wishes and cut the front part as green without his approval? 

Maybe the bigger green made more sense at Yale than at many other Biarritz holes back then.  The water put extreme demands on tee shots to the front pin.  Couldn't run it up there (hard anyway due to the elevated tee).  Couldn't play short.  Compared to, say, the Biarritz at your course, the front pin was and is just as challenging score-wise as the back or harder. 

Also, maybe Raynor saw it would be a ton of fun to putt through the swale.  Maybe that's why virtually all the Biarritz holes that didn't start with swales in the green eventually converted: fun to take your chances putting through the Valley of Sin. 

[Bill Brightly]

Raynor, The Engineer, a non-golfer, learned everything he knew from CB Macdonald. He faithfully replicated CBM's templates to the best of his ability, time and time again, on over 50 courses... You can criticize Raynor for "forcing" CBM"s templates on the ground, but NOT for failing to build those holes...


So your theory is that Raynor had an ephinany at Yale and said "Hey, I think I'll deviate from Old Charlie's concept and build a dual green! I don't care if CBM is still alive, he'll LOVE it!" (And we know CBM would hate it...)


But when Raynor goes to Fishers Island in 1924, he forgets that creative deviation and simply builds the front section as an approach. Why not build a dual green there???


Jim, this is fancy. This is simply a fact (80 years later charcoal is found under the approach at Yale) in search of a dramatic finding. It is FAR more plausible that the powers at Yale (probably their first superintendent) looked at the approach (which clearly LOOKS like a green) and decided to cut the grass short and stick a pin there...

[V. Kmetz]

A story in the Hartford Courant on the opening of Yale refers to the front tier as "fair green." It may have been changed shortly after opening especially since the design would have prevented a horse-drawn or engine-powered fairway unit from getting onto the part of the hole.

Sven, that is an interesting thought, though, that the front portion could be mowed as green but the intent was never to put a flag there.

What really strikes me as odd about the holes are how dead flat most of the front portions are. Yale is a prime example. Fishers seems to be the anomaly, lots of movement in the front plateau and also angled back to front so severely that even in 1925 it could not have been used as a green.

Shoreacres, Westhampton, Yale, Blind Brook all have flat approaches. Blind Brook's front tier runs front to back and it meets the Macdonald description, in reverse, of Biarritz in Outing. "... bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green." Blind Brook is bunkered left, with good low ground right and right beyond that the actual Blind Brook. It is also a downhill tee shot like many others.

Dedham is a one-tier Biarritz. Wanumetonomy does not have a Biarritz, possibly Raynor's only 18-hole layout without one.

As far as good ones, the Biarritz at Black Creek is wonderful.

Your comments in this topical area are always of interest to me; you know your stuff...


In every way that 5th at Fishers remains the most unique and "sensational" of the dozen+  CBM -Raynor-Banks Biarritzes I've played. The shot is every bit as audacious and as stirring in its rigor as Yale's is in its stoic beauty. And I agree that given that character of that ground, the pin was never cut in the front "pad," not even once as a joke...


Given that long and dangerous shot (200+ uphill, gusty yards with only England and badlands framing all but your best blow), THAT swale is more a safe haven than a "trap" to catch and confound green play or a mode to "sling" the ball to the "green proper." Unique among the Biarritz holes I've played, THAT front pad and humped ground "gulley" is an excellent result in 1 shot, given what could have happened to your ball on the way.


So I think that if not the "Best" of biarritzes, it's, imho, the most "sensational."


I actually think you were underselling the very "unconventional" Biarritz iteration at Blind Brook; though as your post was detailing, pins were likely never, ever, not even once cut in the front section


For starters, from either of two greatly different angled blue and white tees, that "front pad" is set at a 10-15 degree oblique angle to the back pad/green, and it doesn't have a straight-on, "skee ball" gulley; THAT gulley pitches and pours hard to the right, often careening the ball diagonally 45 degrees across the front right corner. While the standard 210 Biarritz distance and long controlled hit to advantage the contours is in effect, this pad acts as much as Reverse Redan "kick" mound as it does any Biarritz shot I've played. again, maybe not the best, but one of the most unique.


But overall, if I have to pick a best, there is no other site as is Yale's. Perhaps not so much as matter of the principles of design or the shot control demanded by golf, but as an audacious and exciting portrait. Like a rollercoaster -- you want to get on, but you're a little afraid. It's like desiring to play a classical solo on violin, and then comes that moment on opening night when you have to play it live and without a net.


cheers   vk

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