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Jerry Kluger

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"Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« on: October 16, 2017, 10:23:16 AM »
Of course the question is what is meant by "easy". Easy can be easy to play well, it can be easy to understand the architecture so be able to play it well or perhaps it is as Tom Doak noted in another thread, easy to walk which is an integral part of good architecture.  You use the word in whatever context you like but make sure you give us your reason why.


I would suggest that The Old Course is certainly easy to walk, easy to play well if the weather is benign, and I would also say with a couple of plays you could also argue it is easy to understand the architecture.  Some might argue that is the reason why it is so great but I would say that until you play it in less that "easy" conditions, you really cannot understand the architecture.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 08:54:36 PM »
Jerry,


I don’t have an answer to your question, just another question:


Do the concepts of “easy” or “difficult” exist in the world of match play? I’ve never thought of it before, but if I’m playing match play, I don’t even think of the course, or a hole, as being easy or difficult...just trying to score less than my opponent.


I will be interested to read other responses....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 10:38:34 PM »
TOC is exactly what I think of as the exemplar of easy and great.


My thoughts and memories of TOC consist equally of horror stories from the bunkers or driving it OOB or playing in ridiculous hard weather and also of massive downwind drives, subtle pitch shots over hills for birdies, and a chance to shoot great scores in the right conditions.  That to me is great architecture.


Doesn’t have to be easy under all circumstances to be fun and great.  The sense of possibility is what makes the right kind of easy great.  To borrow from Rotella, a great course makes you feel like you are playing to play great, not just to avoid playing poorly. 













Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2017, 12:13:47 AM »
I can't some up with a single reason why good architecture requires high levels of difficulty. But, other than TOC, how many "easy" courses are on anyone's top-ten list?


For me, as I've said too often here, there are too damned many hard courses around and not enough interesting courses.


But as far as I can figure out, achieving interesting without too much difficulty must be really, really hard.


OTOH, I think I know what it looks like.  Undulating fairways and greens, almost no rough around the greens, "interesting" bunkers, and, most important of all, limited opportunities to pile up penalty strokes.


Like the Old Course, and Brora....


Good players love narrow fairways bordered by lost-ball rough or water (if it's not TOO close) Because for the most part, they view golf as a game of skill.  They don't like "good" shots that end up in a bad spot, and they REALLY hate it when they hit a shot exactly as they planned and it doesn't work.


During the Shinnecock debacle some pro, don't remember who, said "I hit perfect lob wedge and it bounced over the green into a bunker."


IMHO, this is pretty much and American thing, though.  I was to a Scottish + handicapper about and said that most Americans think golf is a test of skill and most Scots see it as a test of character. He allowed as that was true, and said he'd seen the difference with friends of his.


K


Oh, and re. Joe's question, I think you're right, people don't think about it as much in match play, but no one likes a course that dramatically favors their opponents skillset.


For instance, the course I used to play had a men's match play league and it was one of those courses where a crappy ball striker like me could maneuver it down the rough and then do something amazing by the green.


So one night I chipped in for par and a half on the 14th hole without ever seeing the fairway.  I ran into my opponent from that match about 10 years later, and despite having given up the game, he remembered that hole, and was still a little POed about it.


K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 02:55:31 AM »
In this context, easy and short kind of run together.  Quirky and fun features are more accepted on a short par 4 on a 6300 yard course, than on a 460 yard piece of a 7000 yard course, where the same exact green would be derided ass unfair.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 04:06:26 AM »
Sometime ago I played TOC and Carnoustie on consecutive days in similar weather conditions. I played with a 2 hcp friend and his 36 hcp wife. The 2 hccpper and I both found, as per (men’s) conventional golf thinking, TOC much easier than Carnoustie. My friends 36 hcp wife however, said she found Carnoustie easier than TOC. Not sure what this says except that maybe the angles, carries, visibility etc from different tees and for folk of shorter stature have more effect than is usually appreciated.
Atb

Rick Lane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 09:25:49 AM »
"Easy" can be the feeling you get playing courses with wide fairways off the tee, where you don't feel constricted by narrow chutes of trees on every hole.   Of course, angles and ground features come into play, but courses like Garden City and NGLA can make your tee shot feel "less stressful", which might translate into an easier feeling especially at 6300-6500 yards.  Plus you get to look over much longer vistas and appreciate the entirety of the course all the time.   

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 10:15:48 AM »
ANGC is not a hard course from the member tees. It fact, it is a delight. Take out a thousand or so trees and it would be even more delightful.



Bob

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 11:36:45 AM »
This thread reminds me of the Pandering one from a few weeks ago.


Given the wide array of golfing abilities, it would be hard to establish what an "Easy" course is....other than the extreme example of  flat, short rough, no trees, limited bunkers, and no water hazards.


One of the easiest courses I ever played had lots of bunker,  OB on most holes and was 6500 yards from the whites.  Its just all so variable.

Anton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 01:03:17 PM »
Atlantic City CC.  Easy to walk, wide fairways, not many forced carries, great routing variety/angles, fun greens, good scenery, great design with each hole being different from the others, and manageable length.  Just a pleasure to play and can post a very good score on.  Just my opinion after playing it dozens of times. 
“I've spent most of my life golfing - the rest I've just wasted”

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 01:07:31 PM »
It's really a matter of moving up to a set of tees that allows you hit a lot of 8,9,wedges into greens.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 01:53:12 PM »
TOC has the "easy" moniker from lots of us (especially the single-digits) that have played the tourist tees on a calm day and shot a good score (hi Leary!!).  Surely it's more of a test in a breeze or some rain, or from 7400y.

My question is how many calamities have to befall a TOC player before the mind flips away from "easy"?

Visiting 1 bunker and playing out sideways?  2 bunkers? 3?

I've played three rounds at TOC, two in 1999 as a 6-capper (80,79 both in calm-ish conditions), and one in 2011 as a plus (72, calm conditions with some drizzle).  I find the biggest challenge to be the size of the greens.  If you have any wind (or lack of iron control), it's difficult to stop your ball from running away to the edges of the greens.  On US parkland courses, your decent but not great shot might hit the rough 20'-30' away from the pin, leaving a short pitch.  At TOC a slight mishit runs 60-70-80' away and stays on the green, and not many people spend much time practicing that length of putt.  Most links have smaller greens than TOC so you are still chipping your mishits, which is a more familiar shot for parkland players.

The bunkers are challenging when you find one, but a lot of avid amateurs drive past them from the visitor tees at TOC.  My last round there I found myself just hitting way left with driver on most holes, and I was close enough to the green to hit short irons.  Maybe not the best angles to the greens, but it was a TOC version of bomb and gouge (from expansive fairways), and I was able to miss all the bunkers.

So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 02:08:05 PM »
I view a course which gives you options when playing a hole as far easier than one which requires you hit to a particular area and if you don't your next shot is either extremely difficult or a layup. Many of the minimalist courses I have played are far easier than those where substantial volumes of dirt were moved. I find them much easier in the sense that you can understand the course/architecture and how you can play the course well.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 03:39:04 PM »
Isn't this why all MacRaynor courses are popular?  Sure, they can be tough in certain spots, but for the most part they're relatively easy.  Mainly because of length, but typically they are well maintained, have width, and large greens.  They typically add up to a very enjoyable experience.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 05:11:45 PM »
It's really a matter of moving up to a set of tees that allows you hit a lot of 8,9,wedges into greens.


Just like the folks we see playing on TV! :)
Atb

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2017, 08:11:24 PM »
From my one play (with a scouting walk on a Sunday), I didn't think TOC was difficult.  We played with a 20+ mph breeze.  The day before  with the breeze from the opposite direction it seemed impossible.  I left feeling that my score would have been worse the next ten rounds I played.  Ignorance was bliss.  As a golfer and a geezer, I treasure the experience that I probably won't repeat.  I wouldn't say the course difficult or easy.  I would say it was the best course I ever played, but there is a lot of baggage attached to this judgment.  All I can say is do it, as a golfer, it is your destiny.       

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2017, 06:33:53 AM »
Do the courses with the big dunes in Ireland play more difficult than the flatter links courses of Scotland - say Ballybunion and Lahinch versus TOC.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2017, 10:04:00 AM »
Do the courses with the big dunes in Ireland play more difficult than the flatter links courses of Scotland - say Ballybunion and Lahinch versus TOC.


One aspect of flatter vrs more severe terrain that sometimes goes unconsidered is tiredness from walking a course and the overall length of time it takes to play 18-holes. The more so in severe weather. And the more tired you are the less likely you are to play well, especially towards the end of a round. And long courses with plenty of ups and downs including up to very raised tees can be pretty damn tiring*.


atb


* and yes, I appreciate the existence of buggies and sometimes caddies.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2017, 11:20:07 AM »
    Let's define "easy" objectively - a course rating under par and a slope of less than 124.  Any qualifiers?  I don't know of any.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2017, 01:45:03 PM »
Mid Pines and Pine Needles both meet  those criteria (not necessarily agreeing with the criteria) from the Regular Tees I am pretty sure.


Ira

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Easy" golf courses with good golf course architecture
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2017, 03:17:57 PM »
As a general aside, and as mentioned in previous threads, I would suggest that 'easy' isn't really achieved until someone has a achieved a 'plus' hcp, ie when they are required to give shots back to the course.
atb

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