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Niall C

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Beith Golf Club to close
« on: October 10, 2017, 09:10:56 AM »
Formed in 1896, this north Ayrshire club played over nine holes until it decided to celebrate its centenary by extending the course to 18 holes. Now the members have decided to fold the club. The decision to close was taken by the members at an EGM last week. They aren’t closing because they have received a better offer for the land, far from it. I expect the land will readily revert back to grazing land. Simply put this small local club is folding because they can’t guarantee they will meet their costs over the next year.
 
The reason I mention this is that the Scottish Golf Union are pressing to near double the individual annual subs payable to the SGU from just over £12 pa to £24 pa. The reason given is that they need the additional funds “to help grow the game”. With this money they will be able to bring in a new centralised booking system that will allow them to take a percentage of any greenfees (at least that is my understanding but if I’ve got that wrong, someone please correct me) and other supposed “benefits” that I can’t quite fathom how they will work to the clubs/members benefit. It seems to me that this is just a classic case of empire building when what is needed is an example on how to reduce costs without materially affecting the benefits for the members.
 
Niall

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 10:01:44 AM »
Why is it seemingly a binary decision to remain in the SGU or close the club?


I get that's not explicit, but it's also not that much of a stretch from your post.

Clyde Johnson

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 10:06:17 AM »
Niall, I had seen both these pieces of news...


I do wonder if the Beith Golf Club could at least try running for a season with just their nine "old" holes? I notice on their website that wet ground conditions mean that are playing twice around the "old" anyway...only for 10GBP too! Looking at the pictures, probably a more enticing offer than when the full 18 is open.




As for the SGU, there is more to it than just the booking system, if you believe their flyer: https://www.scottishgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/Scottish-Golf-Strategy-Benefits-at-a-Glance-Infographic-Web.pdf . There are another 6 suggested supporting documents if you can be bothered.


There seems to be an 'economies of scale' drive behind the booking system, but also collective buying, education and green keeping resources. A development fund for practice facilities too, though the breakdown of how this will actually work and the figures is typically flakey.


The headline maker, I am not sure how a centralised booking system is in reality any different to how most clubs operate now...perhaps more attention will be drawn to your club, though that will surely only continue to drive green fee prices down at most?

Perhaps I am being unfair, but it seems like the business of golf is putting itself first!?  After all, Scottish Golf will be require to reduce its expenditure by £400,000 per annum without an increase in subs, and that surely means a loss of jobs for those in the
organisation?
 
 
 
 

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 10:23:11 AM »
The email I received said they wanted to add £12.75 to the current £11.25 to make it £24 a year.


Whatever, I’m sure it will be utterly cryit doun at the AGM...


F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 10:27:44 AM »
Jonathan
 
I’ve undoubtedly made my point in my usual ham fisted way but I wasn’t suggesting, or at least wasn’t trying to, that the club is closing because of the SGU. FYI individual golfers who are members at clubs pay the SGU subs, albeit through their club membership. My point was that clubs are struggling because of declining membership, and membership is declining (in my view) because of increased costs of membership of the clubs, and the SGU response is to effectively add to that cost.
Therefore if you follow and agree with my logic, more golfers will chuck their membership and the clubs will suffer which is counter to what they are supposedly trying to achieve.
 
Clyde
 
I’ve only read the press releases and headlines and to be honest haven’t checked out the detail and yes it did seem they were trying to recreate something that is already in place at a lot of clubs but with a percentage going to the SGU, hence my comment on empire building. Maybe that last bit is me being a cynic but I fail to see the added value and can only see the down side.
 
Agree re pics on club website, 9 reasonably good/interesting holes and 9 holes in a field. Worth a whirl for £10 I’d have thought and will make the effort to have a look see before it goes.
 
Niall

Thomas Dai

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 10:38:54 AM »

Country and County Unions in the UK have been continuously increasing their dues for a while now. They take in a lot of golfers £££ this way. Say as simple maths 40 clubs in a County Union with 400 members each all paying £15 to the County Union......that's £240,000. Not sure what they do with it all but the Tie & Blazer Committee Brigade and their chums are regularly to be seen wearing expensive county logo'd Galvin Green waterproofs and jackets and logo'd clothing, caps etc and the teams play with logo'd free issue county ProV1's, massive county logo'd bags, even power trolleys and rangefinders sometimes. "Nice little earner" as Arthur Daley used to say.

By the way Beith GC's constitution, as can be viewed on their website, says - "Upon dissolution of the Club any remaining assets, after satisfaction of all its debts and liabilities, shall be given or transferred to another registered CASC, a registered charity or the sport's governing body." - this'll take some unravelling....fingers in pies and vested interests and all that.

atb




Niall C

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 10:57:42 AM »
Sorry Dai, I’m having none of that lazy stereotype of Committee men. In your average club it is the committee who give up their free time when I suspect they would rather be doing something else like actually playing golf, and who largely keep the clubs going. I very much doubt that Beith is/was anything other than a small local club with modest means. The only vested interests I suspect will be from some committee members who probably have been propping up the club for years and have now decided that it is time to put their energy and resources elsewhere.
 
Niall 

Ryan Coles

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2017, 11:02:09 AM »
Income levels for county and national unions are actually down. The increases are to cover the losses in the number of Club members, rightly or wrongly.


I think Dai is being uncharacteristically blasé. County union accounts are a matter of public record. If is £15 the County union only gets around half. Speaking for my own County Union they spend an awful lot on their coaching programme and actually give expenses to kids playing national level events so that perhaps progression is not solely the preserve of the wealthy. I’d also say that salaried county secretary aside, most unions run largely on the goodwill and time of volunteers.


I believe England Golf, Nigel Edwards and Peter Mattsson before him have done well producing elite players.


I’m not saying there isn’t any fat that couldn’t be trimmed and Niall is correct that empire building goes on. Economies proposed from merging men’s and ladies haven’t materialised. Central tee times shouldn’t be entertained until the mess of central handicapping is resolved.


From a perspective of a Club Secretary, there is scope to tap into funding at grassroots for clubs who are interested and also the Club services departments at national level are helpful in assisting Clubs, again, for those who are interested.


Most county subs get a county card thrown in. It’s not perfect but nor are the ecb in cricket, rfu in Rugby etc


If you aren’t happy with the County unions, get along to the meetings and shake things up.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2017, 11:47:38 AM »
Ryan
 
You are quite correct, it is up to the individual SGU members to vote the proposal down if they aren’t happy. In that respect I’m less sure of that happening than Martin appears to be, but here’s hoping.
 
Niall 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2017, 11:52:17 AM »
Niall,
I think you may have interpreted my comments incorrectly as I'm not having a go at the committee folks at BGC, far from it, and hope that BGC are able in the time left to find a route to continue, but I'd rather most of the £ they and other clubs are required/expected to hand over to other golf bodies actually stayed within the club. My niggle is above club level, for I know a club who challenged the County over the level of dues they were expected to pay and were quietly/unofficially told not to rock any boats. Back scratchers and vested interested at a higher level? The constitutions of governing bodies also need to be watched as the small print may well not allow the voting down of dues etc. Plus, who is doing the voting?
As to the general nature and personalities of those on private members golf club committee's, well I won't go there expect to say that I have a couple of those blood stained t-shirts so I've have seen a few 'interesting instances'. Indeed, I have heard it said more than a few times that some private members clubs (though very much not the smaller ones) function despite rather than because of the various committee's.


Ryan,
As someone at the sharp end your comments are much appreciated. As you say this type of funding issue is not just golf bodies but other sports as well and fat does tend to accumulate over time. Thanks for the insight for, as mentioned above, attempting to challenge bodies isn't always the way to go.


A story about sports teams and those who oversee the sport -


A national soccer team qualified to play in the World Cup to be played in a far off country. The players, even the team manager and coaches etc, all travelled Economy Class and shared hotel rooms. The committee folk all travelled First Class and had individual hotel rooms.


atb



Ryan Coles

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2017, 12:28:07 PM »

Agreed, sometimes the balance of power does need to be reiterated. Clubs exist to serve members. Counties exist to serve clubs, and national bodies should serve counties.

PS, I think Roy Keane kicked off sufficiently about the issue you mention to bring about the necessary changes. Which although unpalatable at the time, has the desired effect.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 12:40:47 PM by Ryan Coles »

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2017, 01:53:47 PM »

I do not know what the situation is at Beith other than what has been posted on various sites.


As for the SGU putting up the subs to grow the game I would be very sceptical. They have failed to show any leadership in this department over the last decade and the very apathetic tones coming out of all the governing bodies about the state of the game really does not give any confidence that they will be able to. To throw more money at it seems more an act of desperation than anything else and looks like throwing good money after bad.


Setting up a central booking system is a great idea but why just now when many have been saying this for years. Where were the SGU in 2009 when this would have made a big difference. Should have done it then instead of pulling a face and saying it was not their responsibility.


Before they put up subs maybe they should not be turning members away which has happened. I hope now they are more open to talking to the world outside the committee room and that taking on new ideas will be a success but I will not hold my breath.


Jon

Sean_A

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 03:47:44 AM »
If folks recall, the county card system used to cost money, at least in WORCS.  Not that many years ago the EGU fees were essentially doubled, but the co card came free.  That card is easily worth the membership dues.  Although, I don't know why clubs can't have a green fee for visitors belonging to English clubs, however, I suspect that if this wasn't an EGU sponsored deal then many more clubs wouldn't offer the deal.  In any case, I agree with Ryan.  The fee is quite low for the service provided to club members and structure of amateur golf. 


Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ken Moum

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2017, 10:28:42 PM »
i'm probably going regret going here, but listening to Scots complain about the price of 24 GBP to belong to the national union, which apparently includes handicap service is a bit... interesting.


Where I live the handicap fee is about $30, and it doesn't include a USGA membership.


But then the economics or Scottish golf are a wonderment anyway. I love playing in Scotland, but in 7 weeks, not playing every day, I can spend several times the annual sub for most of the courses I played. Joining Golspie as an overseas member, and playing comps my wife and I managed to save some money.


Nevertheless, every golfer I know in the US would think they'd died and gone to golf heaven if they could join a club like Brora for the equivalent of 300 pounds.  My brother has kept track of what it costs him to play at his club, which isn't famous, because the bills were paid through his business (not deductible FWIW)


A typical year it ran $10-12 THOUSAND dollars.


I am in no way suggesting that we have it right. In fact, I wish we could emulate a lot of your system. But depending on visitors paying green fees that amount to a fifth or more of the annual sub seems like a plan that's doomed to eventually fail.


K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2017, 03:36:40 AM »
Depending on visitors paying green fees that amount to a fifth or more of the annual sub seems like a plan that's doomed to eventually fail.




But that model only applies to a relatively small number of well-regarded courses in remote locations that


(a) attract significant numbers of visitors willing and able to pay a hefty green fee and


(b) do not have a local population large and/or affluent enough to pay a realistic membership subscription.


The regular flow of visitors paying a decent green fee subsidises greatly the cost of membership for locals at courses such as Royal Dornoch and its neighbours as well as Welsh equivalents such as Harlech and Conwy. Silloth is another example.




There are far more clubs like Beith however, which must rely almost entirely on annual subscriptions from an ever dwindling local membership.


Selling green fees at £10 per time can only hasten the demise of such clubs as more and more golfers spurn the attractions of club membership and spread their custom around the courses offering the best deals that day or week.


I expect to see many more clubs like Beith closing. Those in built up areas might be unviable as golf clubs but will generally have a valuable asset in terms of building land.


Beith unfortunately, looks to be in the middle of nowhere, and its land suitable only for grazing sheep.




« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 03:44:09 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2017, 03:56:47 AM »

Ken,


I whole heartedly agree with you and in fact members clubs should look to cover their running costs through the member's subs with the GF takings being for non-essential extras. The grumbling about the union subs is that the union has presided over the current slide in the popularity of the game and done nothing to counter it. Indeed, all the noises coming out of the SGU (and R&A) have led one to believe they saw the decline as inevitable and there was no way to stop it.


To many of us it seems that now they see the subs intake reaching a point where they might have to tighten their own belts their answer is to raise the subs and finally do something such as a booking system. They should have acted earlier instead of just looking on and turning new members away.


I do see the booking system as something that will work but the SGU need to get off their backsides and really push it big style not just to the clubs but also to the golfer who is not a member. It will take time as so many clubs are signed up to 'GolfNow' and the like and until these contracts run out they will be tied. They should have set up a booking system years ago.


As to how sustainable the UK system is compared to the US I will take the UK's every time and it seems to have worked okay over the last few centuries. Were the US system to come into place here 90% of clubs would shut overnight.


Jon
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 04:06:39 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2017, 05:19:07 AM »
I doubt the blazers came up with it themselves so I wonder how much ££££ the SGU paid a consultancy to come up with this and the rest of the strategy that goes with it?
https://www.scottishgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/Scottish-Golf-Strategy-Benefits-at-a-Glance-Infographic-Web.pdf .
Governing bodies and committees etc are usually pretty good as spending money......other peoples money that is.
Good luck Beith GC.
atb
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 05:21:36 AM by Thomas Dai »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2017, 07:38:33 AM »
Ken

I read your comments with interest and as they used to say when I was a kid "what's that got to do with the price of bread ?". In other words comparing US to Scotland when it's two different cultures/systems is as pointless as it is dangerous. Pegging things to what they cost overseas or in the US in particular is how we've ended up with £100 plus greenfees for some of the big courses and not far short of that for "lesser" courses.

There are between 500 and 600 courses in Scotland and the vast majority are owned and run by members clubs. Traditionally those clubs have been run by committee made up of members, giving their time freely and for the benefit of all members.Largely that meant running the golf course while providing a basic service at a low/reasonable cost. For most any visitor fees were a bonus as Jon suggests. Memberships, if my experience is anything to go by, is made up of a wide cross section of society and not just well to do businessmen.

That's why costs count. When many members are reviewing their subs and wondering whether it is worth it, why make it harder for clubs to justify the costs and retain members by adding to those costs.

Niall





Ken Moum

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2017, 01:49:19 PM »
Ken

I read your comments with interest and as they used to say when I was a kid "what's that got to do with the price of bread ?". In other words comparing US to Scotland when it's two different cultures/systems is as pointless as it is dangerous. Pegging things to what they cost overseas or in the US in particular is how we've ended up with £100 plus greenfees for some of the big courses and not far short of that for "lesser" courses.

There are between 500 and 600 courses in Scotland and the vast majority are owned and run by members clubs. Traditionally those clubs have been run by committee made up of members, giving their time freely and for the benefit of all members.Largely that meant running the golf course while providing a basic service at a low/reasonable cost. For most any visitor fees were a bonus as Jon suggests. Memberships, if my experience is anything to go by, is made up of a wide cross section of society and not just well to do businessmen.

That's why costs count. When many members are reviewing their subs and wondering whether it is worth it, why make it harder for clubs to justify the costs and retain members by adding to those costs.

Niall


Oh, I certainly understand, I thought my closing comments reflected that.  In fact, there are plenty of courses in the US that are like Beith.


Due to an odd combination of travel and golf this summer, my wife and I ended up with memberships at FOUR courses.


We had one with Great Life Golf and Fitness in Kansas that was ~$800, for 15 courses, all in crappy condition.


Then we spent some time in South Dakota where we bought a season pass at a city-owned course for about the same.


Then we moved to North Dakota for several weeks and bought an out-of-town membership at a nine holer for $200.


Finally we bought overseas memberships at Golspie.


First I've ever been able to say, "At one of my clubs."


Seriously though. The membership that appeals to me most is the one at Rugby GC in ND, where the members are engaged.


On men's night a local cook comes in to provide all the sides for a steak dinner, the men pick their steaks out of a fridge and cook them on a grill themself.


Losing a local company ruse like Beith is sad.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2017, 06:48:20 AM »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2017, 01:56:04 PM »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2017, 04:06:59 AM »
http://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/dodds-has-taken-the-dishonourable-way-out



OPINION
"Dodds has taken the dishonourable way out"
By Michael McEwan — 17 October, 2017





In truth, Blane Dodds’ decision to leave Scottish Golf after just over a year at the helm doesn’t come as much of a surprise.


Rumours have been circulating about the chief executive’s position since the summer, with suggestions that he was keen on a role with Tennis Scotland something of an open secret in certain circles.


The fact that he continued to act as chair of Tennis Scotland whilst in post at Scottish Golf - at least, that's what it says on his LinkedIn account - did nothing to silence the murmurings.


What is surprising is the timing of his departure. In just over six weeks’ time, a new strategic plan for Scottish Golf – essentially, the fruits of Dodds’ labour over the last six to nine months – will be debated at a Special General Meeting before Scottish Golf stakeholders will be asked to vote upon them.


If conversations on social media are anything to go by, it appears that there is very little chance of the proposals being passed.


Speaking to Dodds in St Andrews two weeks ago, I got the sense he knew that, too.


He cut a (ironically enough) resigned figure. Downbeat, downcast, defeated. What he didn’t appear to have was the stomach for a fight – and that’s the exact opposite of what Scottish Golf needs right now.


By his own admission, he inherited an organisation that was in a bad way. He told me that, when he came in, expenditure was outstripping income and so he set in place a new business strategy in an attempt to balance the books and make Scottish Golf better fit for purpose.


The decision by sportscotland to slash its funding to the body was a further complication he could have done without but it appears to be the broadly negative response to his proposed strategy overhaul that has broken this particular camel’s back.


Do his staff, stakeholders and golf club members have a right to feel disappointed in his decision to, effectively, abandon ship? Absolutely. He’s outlined his vision for the future, encouraged everyone to buy into it – and, at the first opportunity, made a dash for the hills.


He will say that an opportunity to return to an organisation and a sport that is, by all accounts, his first love was too much to resist and that he has to do what is right for him. That’s as maybe. But he has led another organisation and another sport down a path that, from what I gather, he had little intention of seeing through to the end.


That, to me, is dishonourable.


So, what next? First and foremost, the Scottish Golf board has a massive responsibility to make sure that the next appointment is the right one. That’s on them and they’ll know that. If they don’t, they should. Dodds was the current board’s man. Like it or not, they’re partly accountable for his tenure.


Whether or not the proposals outlined in the strategic overhaul still get debated at the Special General Meeting on December 2 remains to be seen. For what it’s worth, I’d listen to the noise and go back to the drawing board rather than attempt to push through the agenda of somebody who didn’t have the gumption to see it through themself.


These are troubled, worrying times for Scottish Golf and things may get worse but if there is any silver lining, it is this - it’s better to know now the commitment of the man at the helm than find out further down the line.


Chief executives are meant to lead by example. Sadly, the only example Dodds has set is how not to do it.




Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Beith Golf Club to close
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2017, 05:24:18 AM »
Selling green fees at £10 per time can only hasten the demise of such clubs as more and more golfers spurn the attractions of club membership and spread their custom around the courses offering the best deals that day or week.


I expect to see many more clubs like Beith closing. Those in built up areas might be unviable as golf clubs but will generally have a valuable asset in terms of building land.


Beith unfortunately, looks to be in the middle of nowhere, and its land suitable only for grazing sheep.
Duncan is 100% right. Someone has decided to sell the green fee for just £10 and pretty much the only way you can exist at £10 is that 1 person runs everything at the course. £10 sends you to the wall unless your a little community 9 hole project.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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