[Bob Montle]

When asked for his opinion of Glen Oaks Club, an anonymous caddy replied that he thought it was about the 30th best course ...







On long island.


I've never played on long island.  Your thoughts?

[Tom_Doak]

I have not seen Glen Oaks, but 30th on Long Island would not be too bad.  I just looked through The Confidential Guide and counted 28 courses on Long Island which I would classify as worth playing.  The lowest-rated of those were Glen Head [the former Women's National], Montauk Downs, and Nassau CC.

[Brian Finn]

That sounds about right, and as Tom said, 30th on LI is pretty darn good.

Here's a list of 20+ courses that I believe are better than Glen Oaks: 
Shinnecock, NGLA, Friars Head, Sebonack, Bethpage Black, Garden City, Maidstone, Atlantic, Piping Rock, The Creek, Deepdale, The Bridge, East Hampton, Meadow Brook, Southampton, Westhampton, St. George’s, Engineers, Nassau, Sands Point, North Shore, Bethpage Red, Rockaway Hunt, Huntington

Here are nearly 20 more, many of which are of similar (possibly better) quality, in my view:
Quogue Field Club, Brookville, Wheatley Hills, Mill River, Laurel Links, Montauk Downs, Hempstead G&CC, Woodmere, Rockville Links, Cherry Valley, Southward Ho, Bellport, Tallgrass, Bethpage Green, Cold Spring, Eisenhower Red, Garden City CC

[Steve Lapper]

Having played most all of those mentioned by Brian and the 28 in Tom's Confidential Guide, I'd have placed the "old" Glen Oaks far beneath all of them.


The "new" Glen Oaks has it's flaws (the 18th hole a glaring example), but overall it is much much better than it's past and deserves a place somewhere between 21 and 30.....certainly no higher. The work there is stunning and intelligent in some places(more than not), yet silly and superficial in others. As I've noted before, it's worth playing any day...... if only to create a larger appetite for the buffet.

[Tom_Doak]

The "new" Glen Oaks has it's flaws (the 18th hole a glaring example), but overall it is much much better than it's past and deserves a place somewhere between 21 and 30.....certainly no higher. The work there is stunning and intelligent in some places(more than not), yet silly and superficial in others. As I've noted before, it's worth playing any day...... if only to create a larger appetitive for the buffet.

Steve:


Who did the work to the "new" Glen Oaks?  I know they were looking for a consultant once Craig Currier took over the reins as superintendent, but I never heard who took on the work, and it didn't seem to get any mention this week.

[B.Ross]

might be biased (i'm a member), but inwood cc has to be on any list that also includes north shore or engineers, much less woodmere or rockville links. played glen oaks in early-mid july. the conditions are outstanding, out of this world amazing. the lay out didn't do much for me.

[Bob Montle]

I am impressed.   Maybe my next trip should be to Long Island instead of Scotland.

[Howard Riefs]

Steve:


Who did the work to the "new" Glen Oaks?  I know they were looking for a consultant once Craig Currier took over the reins as superintendent, but I never heard who took on the work, and it didn't seem to get any mention this week.

Joel Weiman of McDonald Design, according to this article:


http://www.pgatour.com/long-form/2017/08/22/glen-oaks-awaits-pga-tour-top-125.html

[Jeff Evagues]

That sounds about right, and as Tom said, 30th on LI is pretty darn good.

Here's a list of 20+ courses that I believe are better than Glen Oaks: 
Shinnecock, NGLA, Friars Head, Sebonack, Bethpage Black, Garden City, Maidstone, Atlantic, Piping Rock, The Creek, Deepdale, The Bridge, East Hampton, Meadow Brook, Southampton, Westhampton, St. George’s, Engineers, Nassau, Sands Point, North Shore, Bethpage Red, Rockaway Hunt, Huntington

Here are nearly 20 more, many of which are of similar (possibly better) quality, in my view:
Quogue Field Club, Brookville, Wheatley Hills, Mill River, Laurel Links, Montauk Downs, Hempstead G&CC, Woodmere, Rockville Links, Cherry Valley, Southward Ho, Bellport, Tallgrass, Bethpage Green, Cold Spring, Eisenhower Red, Garden City CC

Tallgrass closed this year.

[Ed Brzezowski]

The "new" Glen Oaks has it's flaws (the 18th hole a glaring example), but overall it is much much better than it's past and deserves a place somewhere between 21 and 30.....certainly no higher. The work there is stunning and intelligent in some places(more than not), yet silly and superficial in others. As I've noted before, it's worth playing any day...... if only to create a larger appetitive for the buffet.

Chatting with Ron Prichard during the event. He says he did a lot of work there, or he was pulling my leg. Can't decide which.

Steve:


Who did the work to the "new" Glen Oaks?  I know they were looking for a consultant once Craig Currier took over the reins as superintendent, but I never heard who took on the work, and it didn't seem to get any mention this week.

[Tim Martin]

might be biased (i'm a member), but inwood cc has to be on any list that also includes north shore or engineers, much less woodmere or rockville links. played glen oaks in early-mid july. the conditions are outstanding, out of this world amazing. the lay out didn't do much for me.

I agree on Inwood which is a blast to play. That area known as Five Towns is loaded with golf courses.

[Brian Finn]

might be biased (i'm a member), but inwood cc has to be on any list that also includes north shore or engineers, much less woodmere or rockville links. played glen oaks in early-mid july. the conditions are outstanding, out of this world amazing. the lay out didn't do much for me.

I'm sure you're right.  I just haven't played Inwood, and did not think of it off the top of my head.  My point was just that Top 20-40 on LI is incredibly good company.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

With exception of asome less than desirable public courses, I had the opportunity to play everywhere on Long Island for 25 years. The depth of great courses has to easily be tops in the world.  The 50th best course on Long Island is better than most city's best! 
When I was on Long Island for Libert Bell festivities, played Glen Oaks twice.  There are weaknesses, but to see what was accomplished after the Stephen Kay vandalism from years ago is remarkable!  The outside the dogleg bunkers that Kay built were removed and they added interior dogleg bunkers that do create risk/reward tee shots.  Going from 27 to 18 was not an option because play tends to be heavy during certain times, and the members belong because they enjoy playing the best conditioned course in the Northest when they expect to play. And the food may be as good as the course conditioning!

[Keith Phillips]

The "new" Glen Oaks has it's flaws (the 18th hole a glaring example)

Steve, I've never been to Glen Oaks but am curious about your comment re. 18...I thought the risk-reward DJ capitalized on in the playoff was great theatre, at a minimum, and possibly great architecture...after his big slice in regulation, that ballsy tee shot enters the pantheon as one of the great clutch tournament shots I've witnessed. 

[Bill Raffo]

The "new" Glen Oaks has it's flaws (the 18th hole a glaring example)

Steve, I've never been to Glen Oaks but am curious about your comment re. 18...I thought the risk-reward DJ capitalized on in the playoff was great theatre, at a minimum, and possibly great architecture...after his big slice in regulation, that ballsy tee shot enters the pantheon as one of the great clutch tournament shots I've witnessed.

 The set up should have accounted for the bombers and either put the tee in a place where nearly everyone could clear or no one could.


To me, it was less a design problem as much as another example of the approved equipment, in the hands of the most powerful players, rendering  a good hole, obsolete. 


Can you imagine if MLB approved the aluminum bat and hitters were rendering the ball parks obsolete? Of course you can't. It would be insanely stupid thing to do.  USGA needs a leadership flush.

[Keith Phillips]

Perhaps.  On the other hand, classic golf courses have always presented different options for the long hitter vs. the shorter hitter, and it is entirely fair that someone with DJ's driving prowess should have the opportunity to be rewarded for his distance...just as he was penalized for his inaccuracy on 18 in regulation.  The fact that Jordan couldn't possibly replicate DJ's job is an issue with Jordan, not the architecture.  If Jordan could have made that carry, your aluminum bat analogy would be spot-on.

[Bill Raffo]

Perhaps.  On the other hand, classic golf courses have always presented different options for the long hitter vs. the shorter hitter, and it is entirely fair that someone with DJ's driving prowess should have the opportunity to be rewarded for his distance...just as he was penalized for his inaccuracy on 18 in regulation.  The fact that Jordan couldn't possibly replicate DJ's job is an issue with Jordan, not the architecture.  If Jordan could have made that carry, your aluminum bat analogy would be spot-on.

The hole is designed to be a decision on how close to the water on the left, the player is willing to hit the tee shot.
An aggressive play leaves you 170, a safer shot right of the water may leave you 185-195. The hole is not designed to have someone hit it over the water and have a flip wedge in from 90 yards.  So, the architecture was just obliterated.  I understand your point but not sure too many people want a world where a handful of players can have a 90 yard approach shot advantage over the field, as a way of settling a golf tournament. It is what it is. If the USGA had any logic, they'd bring DJ to a range with a bunch of restricted balls and chose the one he maxed out at 305, with.  Let the amateurs play with what we currently have and end this costly, senseless mess they've created.

[jeffwarne]

Perhaps.  On the other hand, classic golf courses have always presented different options for the long hitter vs. the shorter hitter, and it is entirely fair that someone with DJ's driving prowess should have the opportunity to be rewarded for his distance...just as he was penalized for his inaccuracy on 18 in regulation.  The fact that Jordan couldn't possibly replicate DJ's job is an issue with Jordan, not the architecture.  If Jordan could have made that carry, your aluminum bat analogy would be spot-on.

The hole is designed to be a decision on how close to the water on the left, the player is willing to hit the tee shot.
An aggressive play leaves you 170, a safer shot right of the water may leave you 185-195. The hole is not designed to have someone hit it over the water and have a flip wedge in from 90 yards.  So, the architecture was just obliterated.  I understand your point but not sure too many people want a world where a handful of players can have a 90 yard approach shot advantage over the field, as a way of settling a golf tournament. It is what it is. If the USGA had any logic, they'd bring DJ to a range with a bunch of restricted balls and chose the one he maxed out at 305, with.  Let the amateurs play with what we currently have and end this costly, senseless mess they've created.

Now you're talking crazy talk.


There are so many naysayers who will come up with a litany of reasons why your simple idea won't work(some of which are no doubt legit-but solveable).
Just think what they could come up with if they put the same energy and employed the smartest minds to solving the issue.


To quote a famous GCA tag "there's no money in doing less"(or that)


Which is why the PGA tour is relegated to the "30th best" course in every area they go to.

[Eric LeFante]

The issue with the 18th hole is that there wasn't much risk for DJ with the line he took in the playoff. As long as he started it where he did, he could have hit a 40 yard cut and still been in the fairway. The problem with his drive in regulation is that he started it down the middle and it cut into the rough. By aiming left, he said he had a 100 yard wide fairway.


I guess the way they could have prevented this was adding another fairway bunker left of the current bunker (and right where DJ aimed his tee shot) to force DJ to hit it down the middle of the fairway: if he pushes it right, he would be in the rough, or pull it left, he would be in one of the two bunkers.


Equipment is most certainly the issue. I'm sick of watching pros hit driver - lob wedge into 475 yard par 4s.

[Dan Herrmann]

FWIW, I hated it on TV.   Granted, TV is not being there, but it certainly didn't present well to me.


To me, it was the perfect example of dark ages architecture.   Perhaps too, the beautification movement.

[Matt MacIver]

Jordan said he should have played the DJ line in the playoff - he could have made the carry but played first and choose conservatively. Great match play theatre. Looked like a solid course on tv - but no more than that.

[Ronald Montesano]

Thread-jump comment: Let them hit shots over skyscrapers if they like. I LOVE technology and what it offers. Reminds me of the Bird-Jordan McDonald's commercials, except our boys make those shots.


Thread Comment: What has Joe Finger designed that will stand the test of time? Here's a list, possibly accurate: http://www.golfadvisor.com/architects/1742-joe-finger/

[Bill Brightly]

On the 18th hole, it would seem to me that a simple solution is to remove the fairway bunker just past the pond. That allows shorter hitters to take a slightly more aggressive line, if not the DJ line.


But what is very cool about this course is the soil, which seems to be an excellent sand-based soil. That allowed them create bunkers cut right next to the greens ala Royal Melbourne. When I first played the course last year I met the superintendent and told him it reminded me of Royal Melbourne and he said: "thanks, that course was very much in mind when we were doing the work." I agree that the 18th hole is not good, but the course is definitely fun to play.

[Dan Herrmann]

@Bill Brightly - I certainly respect your opinion,  but I stand by my position which is that I thought the course stinks.   


I guess I prefer the Doak/Hanse/C+C style of architecture to the monstrosity of Glen Oaks' faux Augusta feel.

[Bill Brightly]

Dan,


I would be interested in hearing why you think it is "faux Augusta." They took down tons of trees.

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