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Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« on: July 12, 2017, 02:05:50 PM »
I just had the opportunity to visit West Cliffs, opened last month, on the coast of Potugal an hour north of Lisbon and next to Cabell Robinson's magnificent Praia D'el Rey.

West Cliffs just opened a month ago, and has a rugged, natural style that fits perfectly with the land, rolling dunes with native shrubs, even if a few of the greens are overwrought with undulations. Tees and fairways are predonminantly fescue, with bentgrass greens.

It was very foggy this morning when I visited, so it didn't make for great photography, but I'm told there are sea views from every hole. I could certainly hear the surf from everywhere.

This corner of the world is becoming a golf destination, and should be recommended.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2017, 06:43:18 PM »
Heading there next year!

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 11:46:32 PM »
The November (yes, November) issue of Golf World (UK) has a very positive article on the new West Cliffs course ("Oceanside thriller lives up to hype" & "It won't develop into one of Europe's 'must visit' courses...it already is one."). They have ranked it #25 on their list of the Top 100 courses in Continental Europe, an impressive debut.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 03:11:48 AM »
Yes, it's excellent. Clear number one in Portugal in my eyes. The only downside is that now is the best it will ever be -- when the housing is built the beautiful natural environment will take a hit.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Matt Dawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 10:10:31 AM »
Interesting - I hadn't heard about this. I hope it succeeds, it's a lovely part of the world.

Was tempted to buy a holiday place here back in early 2000s when they built Praia d'el Rey; I thought the course was superb. Hardly a property to be seen anywhere. But then I walked into the sales office and saw one of the scale models of the course, with rows of little white boxes down the sides of the holes...and swiftly reversed out again.

We were there in early Sept a few years ago and drove up to the new Royal Obidos course (Seve designed!!) for a look around and maybe some lunch as it was a drizzly day. The place was completely deserted, and I actually thought it had closed down

Are they trying to build a few courses to attract groups of visiting golfers away from the Algarve? The weather can be pretty changeable being tight by the Atlantic - and there's a reason why surfers chase the world's biggest waves just a few miles away!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2017, 09:04:45 AM »


 a rugged, natural style that fits perfectly with the land, rolling dunes with native shrubs, even if a few of the greens are overwrought with undulations. Tees and fairways are predonminantly fescue, with bentgrass greens.



Wow, I wonder where they got those ideas ?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2017, 09:11:47 AM »


 a rugged, natural style that fits perfectly with the land, rolling dunes with native shrubs, even if a few of the greens are overwrought with undulations. Tees and fairways are predonminantly fescue, with bentgrass greens.



Wow, I wonder where they got those ideas ?


Scotland?
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2019, 03:41:46 PM »
I had the opportunity to play West Cliffs in May.  While Obidos and the Douro Valley were the highlights, my morning at West Cliffs was very pleasant.  A few photos...













































David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 05:46:21 PM »
Mark -
Thanks very much for the pics. Looks pretty good.
Did you get a sense of how the course was doing? How much play it is getting?
DT

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2019, 05:59:04 PM »
David, I really don’t know. Tee sheet was fairly busy on the mid-May morning I was there.


The whole check-in and starter operation did not feel overly smooth.


This is the first time I’ve posted pictures from iPhone rather than a camera... wow, what a difference.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2019, 06:21:28 PM »
Mark,


Thanks the pics!


Looks like a great place for Europeans to escape and the golf rates for this month are reasonable- 54E during the week and 64E on weekends.

 
https://westcliffs.com

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2019, 08:53:00 AM »
I played West Cliffs this morning. Excellent golf course and I think Adam is probably right in saying No.1 in Portugal.


The landscape is stunning, the use of native waste / sand areas and scrub is done extremely well, skilfully shaped and included within the concept of each hole. There’s good deliberate use of deception in places, some good strategic golf holes and there’s a few quirky individual spots, most of which work very well.


Green undulations are large without being overdone although the Redan 5th and elephant under the green 14th bring those undulations to a different level and  are all the better because they do not occur on every hole.


Best holes are probably the magical par-five 7th with a fairway winding downhill over a hell’s half-acre waste area to a raised green with the ocean in the distant background. Also the aforementioned 14th with a quirky sandy hump before the green and that huge mound in the green itself.


Now to the criticism that will probably separate it from being considered world class:


- A lot of long walks green to tee, some of which might have been necessary but some of which could surely have been sorted at routing stage. It feels like it has been designed for buggies firstly, walking second.

- A little bit of over-shaping in the fairways and green surrounds, all on a macro-scale. Maybe more areas with gully pots than were strictly needed. Maybe more shaped noses and ridges tying in to the waste areas than were strictly needed. In that respect, it is quite similar to many other modern courses. This is probably the aspect of design that separates Doak, Coore et al from the rest: They do much more micro-contouring without making the macro-tie-ins feel as if they’ve been too artificially shaped. Still, definitely a more natural looking job than most modern courses.

- A few of the holes feel a little contrived and remove you from that feeling that you are at one with nature that is done so well on the rest of the course. The sharp dogleg 9th round water, the very sharp dogleg 17th and unfortunately the quirky par-3 16th which is semi-blind and all carry over a dune to an impossibly tight green site. Normally I’d embrace this kind of quirk but it just didn’t work in this instance.


IF the style of the day ever changes back (in 20 / 30 years) from the current naturalism that is en vogue, will this course still stand above the RTJ / 80’s / 90’s style courses that are so prevalent throughout Europe? I’ll have to think about that. Do the holes stand on their own as fun and enjoyable? My inclination is towards YES with the previously mentioned strategy, deception and good use of diagonals. The fairways also were running firm allowing the odd run-up and kick plate.


Final point: As Adam says, now might be the best time to see it before the housing is built. But it does appear to me that the housing will be much more tasteful and at a bigger remove than the type that partially ruined Praia D’el Rey down the road. I have to think that the core golf will not be too compromised.


Do get yourself here though. Despite my nit-picking above, this is a must see.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 07:27:06 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2019, 07:25:33 AM »
.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2019, 07:32:29 AM »
Pretty much agree with you Ally. Seventh epic. 17 doesn't really work. Disagree slightly about 16; did you view it from multiple sets of tees? The difference in the challenge between tees is I think, quite clever.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2019, 08:03:46 AM »
Pretty much agree with you Ally. Seventh epic. 17 doesn't really work. Disagree slightly about 16; did you view it from multiple sets of tees? The difference in the challenge between tees is I think, quite clever.


I felt from the back two sets of tee (180 yards), the hole didn’t set-up either visually or from a playability standpoint. The hole obviously plays better from the dunetop that hosts the forward two sets but at around 100 yards these are very short and I don’t think the hole is reward enough for the significant uphill hike it takes to get to them. Just thought there might have been better options in this corner of the property.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2019, 10:10:52 AM »
So over on Top 100 Golf Courses everyone is praising the beauty of the layout and the views of the sea and the great club house and what a great new course this is.  But after two rounds I feel this is the emperors new clothes writ large. So I was surprised to (re)read the above views from guys whose opinions I respect.


You can see in the above photo's the greens are goofy. I get small targets, I get get severely shaped undulations but together? On a windy site?  Too repetitive by far for my tastes.  You are going to miss a lot of greens then its your loftiest wedge chipping out of 2" sticky rough onto severe shaping, which effectively means landing on a knife edge.  Welcome to 4 putt club. All the greens feature steep fall offs. e.g there's no where to play safe even on the Redan.
Hitting and holding the greens is no guarantee you wont be a frequent visitor to the 3 putt club.  As for holding last week the soft greens held or plugged, except where the slopes were strongest e.g back of 10 and left of redan.  Then its reach for wedge....


I liked the generous fairways, but a wild shot is a lost ball.  Ice plant and scrub is not forgiving. But I played well only loosing one.




 But they have several problems here.


They now use 10 as the starting hole, which means a LONG RIDE between 18 and 1 (and other places on the course). This also means finishing on 9, the weakest hole. (I kinda liked 17!)
The greens are weirdly soft. I played 4 courses in the general area and this was the only one where you had to walk (in no spike Ecco's) very carefully if you didn't want to leave a mark!
I love Quirk but that mound on 14 is A) an eyesore and B) almost impossible for Women to play over (I witnessed this).


They sort of acknowledge my points by pushing everybody up.  Currently off 15.3 I was advised to play the '51'  which in theory is 5050 metres or 5522 yards.  So for the majority of par 4's I had Driver wedge. It played so short partly because most of the tees were set at the front of the '51' tees to allow (on the majority of holes) the '55' (5999 yards) to be put on the back of the same tee box. I.e. anyone who tells you he played the '56' tees was really playing some where between them and the real '51'. For my second round I played the off the '56' of the day and scored two less stableford points. In effect the '51' are approx 5400 yards! This is particularly noticeable on the Par 3's where I suspect we were actually playing the '47' tees. Even with wind in 8 tee shots I never had more than a 9i in my hand and I'm a very average hitter. Despite it playing so short, everyone you meet or on Top 100 Golf, talks of how difficult it is.
Then when they want to challenge you the holes get absurdly long. E.G 18 (a downhill second shot with a 5i/4r and water all down the right, no thanks) and 9 (presumably going for the green is meant to tempt you like the Belfry 10 - not at 270 yards off the '51' tees it doesn't.)

Unless A the keep up the pretty factor, B make more than half the greens a lot more natural, then I see this falling from favour over the next decade. And people will say it was much better without the housing!



Slightly preferred Royal Obidos and much preferred Praia.  But the one I want a 4th go at is Troia, where the greens are a similar size, much more fiercely defended but  still
make for an interesting challenge. A seriously good golf course.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 11:38:09 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2019, 11:35:33 AM »
Thanking Mark Saltzman


 A few photos...


The shaping really is this sharp.










Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2019, 11:39:40 AM »
The 'offensive' mound


Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2019, 11:40:29 AM »
The hole formerly known as 18, aka the 9th.



So what am I missing?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2019, 12:38:30 PM »
An artificial lake in the foreground with an ocean backdrop should be avoided at all cost, or is that no cost? Some parts do look quite striking but these great sites earmarked for 100's of homesites between each hole fail to interest me.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New: West Cliffs, Portugal, Cynthia Dye
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2019, 05:25:12 PM »
I guess you need to play it to know it.  But I have to say, none of those photos make me want to play it ahead of Palmares.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

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