The Mediocre European Tour Courses

[Emil Weber]

I've played München Eichenried a few times and can confirm that although it's not a bad course for German standards, it is rather mediocre, especially compared to the average PGA Tour course.
I don't think there are that many great alternatives in Germany though, Gut Lärchenhof (Nicklaus) and St. Leon (Dave Thomas) are other courses in Germany that have hosted ET tournaments, and they are probably a step up from München-Eichenried, but still far from great. It would be a nicer, of course, to host an ET event at Hamburg Falkenstein, Budersand or even the Faldo Course at Bad Saarow, but I don't know how realistic or doable that is.
Concerning other ET events, I haven't studied the tour schedule yet but it feels to me that the courses are improving overall, such as the Italian Open being played at I Roveri or last week's Irish Open at Portstewart, which was a joy to watch.
It seems to me altogether that the spans of both quality of the courses and quality of maintenance are wider on the European Tour and more constant on the PGA Tour. I guess it's really a matter of preference for the pros, some surely like it more varied and not always prefectly manicured, others surely don't.
As has been said, there is definitely most of the very good courses in each country left out on the schedule and there is a lot of room for improvement concerning the courses played, but the answer to why that is is pretty simple and has already been said: money

[Mike_Clayton]

Emil,


We played Bremen in 1985 - but as a par 66 (instead of 74) because it was underwater.
I always thought it was a pity we never went back but I'm sure there were good commercial reasons for playing lesser courses. I suppose it doesn't help there is no longer a German Open.
Frankfurt used to be good but not sure what's happened there since?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Is anyone here a member of a regular or better still, an irregular US PGA tour stop?

If so,can you tell me, how far in advance of the tournament does the course prep start, how far in advance are the members tossed off, and for those irregular stops, what is difference between the preparation regime and the normal week to week maintenance?

Not USPGA, but for the Irish Open, here's some info from Portstewart's web-site:


STRAND COURSE
Mats will be used on the Strand Course only from middle of December until 8th April 2017.

Also on the 12th June to 24th June in preparation for the DDF Irish Open.
Due to the impending DDF Irish Open being held here at Portstewart Golf Club on 4th – 9th July, our Course Team are working on maintaining, protecting & developing certain areas of the Strand Course, this included mats to be used in certain areas, roped off areas, the use of forward tees & on occasion top dressing of greens. We endeavour to keep these works to a minimum, to ensure that you still get full enjoyment of the course.
The 2nd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th and 16th fairway landing areas are being protected by the use of plastic mats. The mats MUST be used in the designated areas.

[Thomas Dai]

Not USPGA, but for the Irish Open, here's some info from Portstewart's web-site:
STRAND COURSE
Mats will be used on the Strand Course only from middle of December until 8th April 2017.
Also on the 12th June to 24th June in preparation for the DDF Irish Open.
Due to the impending DDF Irish Open being held here at Portstewart Golf Club on 4th – 9th July, our Course Team are working on maintaining, protecting & developing certain areas of the Strand Course, this included mats to be used in certain areas, roped off areas, the use of forward tees & on occasion top dressing of greens. We endeavour to keep these works to a minimum, to ensure that you still get full enjoyment of the course.
The 2nd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th and 16th fairway landing areas are being protected by the use of plastic mats. The mats MUST be used in the designated areas.

Thanks for posting Donal.
Not sure I'd be too pleased with such restrictions if I was a subscription paying member of the club. Maybe there were 'incentives' made available to the membership.
Perhaps there were lots of curtesies available at other courses for the members. Hopefully the other holes at PS weren't excessively effected by all the required infrastructure etc.
Clear and clean-up time also needs to be considered.
Atb

[Pete Lavallee]

Josh,


Here in San Diego the City closes Torrey Pines two weeks before the tournament. Mowing lines remain constant throughout the year; you'de be surprised how difficult they are to change. The easier North Course had its fairways narrowed to less than 20 yards in some spots. It was the PGA Tour who complained and they ran 6 foot wide green mower down one edge of the fairway to widen it; it took months for the newly mown area to blend in.


Greens are double cut and rolled daily for the Buick and run well above 13; the general public rarely gets anything above 10. Roughs are fertilized and grown from their normal 1" in the winter and are actually longer than the tournament height just before play begins, which is then mowed to 3". Thankfully the Kikuyu fairways will have their divots filled with sand and will recover in the two week shutdown; no need for the dreaded mats! The USGA actually restricted carts to the continuous cartpath for 6 months before the 2008 US Open and the results were startling, nearly perfect surfaces to pick iron shots off. Within two weeks of carts returning the perfect conditions were gone.

[Emil Weber]

We played Bremen in 1985 - but as a par 66 (instead of 74) because it was underwater.
I always thought it was a pity we never went back but I'm sure there were good commercial reasons for playing lesser courses. I suppose it doesn't help there is no longer a German Open.
Frankfurt used to be good but not sure what's happened there since?

Mike,
Bremen seems to have had quite a good reputation back in that day, as it was also included in an older version of the world atlas of golf which I have at home. I haven't been there, but it still looks like a very nice course!
The concept of reducing the par instead of just adding yardage is very interesting and could help a few older courses qualify as tournament venues again. Was it common in the 80s and 90s to play tournaments on courses that have their par in the 60s?
If that mental border of necessarily having to have par 72 or 71 for a tournament course could be overcome, that could surely refresh the tour schedule.
Frankfurt could definitely qualify as a venue if 1-2 par 5s were played as par 4s. In 2005/6, its bunkers and green complexes were renovated and significant artificial mounding added. Although I'm not the biggest fan of the renovated layout, it was an improvement to what was there before and it's now quite a challenging layout and still has a pretty, classic look. For a few years now it has annually hosted the German Amateur Matchplay Championships, but I don't think it could handle much bigger crowds, since there are a lot of trees and forest around. Which brings us to another difference between Euro and US courses: it would be impossible to get a permission for cutting a few trees just to put some spectator stands there for a few weeks each year

[Martin Lehmann]

I've played München Eichenried a few times and can confirm that although it's not a bad course for German standards, it is rather mediocre, especially compared to the average PGA Tour course.
I don't think there are that many great alternatives in Germany though, Gut Lärchenhof (Nicklaus) and St. Leon (Dave Thomas) are other courses in Germany that have hosted ET tournaments, and they are probably a step up from München-Eichenried, but still far from great. It would be a nicer, of course, to host an ET event at Hamburg Falkenstein, Budersand or even the Faldo Course at Bad Saarow, but I don't know how realistic or doable that is.


This week the Winston Senior Open will be played at Winston Golf, close to Schwerin (between Hamburg and Berlin). For the past five years or so, Winston has been a regular stop at the European Senior Tour. Last year the tournament was played at the Links Course for the first time. The same course will be used the coming days. From the tips it measures around 7000yds. In my view it would be an attractive venue for regular tour events as well. Excellent lay-out, wonderful clubhouse and practice facilities, plenty of room and great for spectators.

[Tom_Doak]

I've played München Eichenried a few times and can confirm that although it's not a bad course for German standards, it is rather mediocre, especially compared to the average PGA Tour course.
I don't think there are that many great alternatives in Germany though, Gut Lärchenhof (Nicklaus) and St. Leon (Dave Thomas) are other courses in Germany that have hosted ET tournaments, and they are probably a step up from München-Eichenried, but still far from great. It would be a nicer, of course, to host an ET event at Hamburg Falkenstein, Budersand or even the Faldo Course at Bad Saarow, but I don't know how realistic or doable that is.


This week the Winston Senior Open will be played at Winston Golf, close to Schwerin (between Hamburg and Berlin). For the past five years or so, Winston has been a regular stop at the European Senior Tour. Last year the tournament was played at the Links Course for the first time. The same course will be used the coming days. From the tips it measures around 7000yds. In my view it would be an attractive venue for regular tour events as well. Excellent lay-out, wonderful clubhouse and practice facilities, plenty of room and great for spectators.

WARNING:  If you are allergic to artificial, pointy mounds, tune in for this event at your peril.  It's either the best course in Germany, or the worst, depending on your tastes.


Have to say I've never seen a course where the earthmoving resulted in something so steep that large areas are fenced off as internal out-of-bounds, to prevent injury!

[MClutterbuck]

Is anyone here a member of a regular or better still, an irregular US PGA tour stop?

If so,can you tell me, how far in advance of the tournament does the course prep start, how far in advance are the members tossed off, and for those irregular stops, what is difference between the preparation regime and the normal week to week maintenance?

I can talk about a PGA Latinoamerica event course used a couple years ago for the year ending Championship event (Argentine Open). Obviously not the same thing, but it is run by the PGA Tour and the preparation standards come out of the same booklet (eg green speeds). This was the third Argentine Open at the 10 year old course, but first one run by the PGA Tour.


There were no restrictions to play whatsoever until the Friday before the event. We took carts off fairways 4 weeks before the event. We fertilized fairways and roughs quite a bit more than usual due to lower than normal spring temperatures and thin growth. We were asked to slow down greens quite considerably from our normal speeds and previous Argentine Open speeds. The PGA Tour players that participated stated the course played as well as the best they have seen on the PGA Tour. The timing of the event helps as it is the best moment for fairways and greens agronomically.

[Martin Lehmann]

I've played München Eichenried a few times and can confirm that although it's not a bad course for German standards, it is rather mediocre, especially compared to the average PGA Tour course.
I don't think there are that many great alternatives in Germany though, Gut Lärchenhof (Nicklaus) and St. Leon (Dave Thomas) are other courses in Germany that have hosted ET tournaments, and they are probably a step up from München-Eichenried, but still far from great. It would be a nicer, of course, to host an ET event at Hamburg Falkenstein, Budersand or even the Faldo Course at Bad Saarow, but I don't know how realistic or doable that is.


This week the Winston Senior Open will be played at Winston Golf, close to Schwerin (between Hamburg and Berlin). For the past five years or so, Winston has been a regular stop at the European Senior Tour. Last year the tournament was played at the Links Course for the first time. The same course will be used the coming days. From the tips it measures around 7000yds. In my view it would be an attractive venue for regular tour events as well. Excellent lay-out, wonderful clubhouse and practice facilities, plenty of room and great for spectators.

WARNING:  If you are allergic to artificial, pointy mounds, tune in for this event at your peril.  It's either the best course in Germany, or the worst, depending on your tastes.


Have to say I've never seen a course where the earthmoving resulted in something so steep that large areas are fenced off as internal out-of-bounds, to prevent injury!

Tom,

No discussion that Winston Links is as artificial as can be (many newly build golf courses are). But besides this landscape architectural argument (where taste plays an important role as well), Winston Links is, at least in my view, a very good lay-out, great fun to play and great for tournament golf.

On three or four holes 'canyons' are fenced of to protect players from falling down, but because of the vastness of these holes and the site more in general, I wouldn't label this as internal OOB.

All in all playing Winston Links is a special experience. The fescue on the entire course and the fast & firm playing conditions add a lot to the links-ish feel.

[Matthew Petersen]

Is anyone here a member of a regular or better still, an irregular US PGA tour stop?

If so,can you tell me, how far in advance of the tournament does the course prep start, how far in advance are the members tossed off, and for those irregular stops, what is difference between the preparation regime and the normal week to week maintenance?

As a public venue, it obviously has some different considerations, but you can generally play TPC Scottsdale up until 3-4 days before the tournament week and usually start again the Tuesday following. Prep for the tournament starts in the fall, basically as soon as the overseed starts to get established. Obviously, that particular tournament has more infrastructure than most.

[Mike_Clayton]

Emil,


It was a part 66 because it was so wet and the only way to play was to move the tees up on a few par 5s and play them as par 3s. Bernhard Langer still won - as he probably would have on the full par 74 course.
Frankfurt was quite short back in the mid-late 1980s so I assume it'd play very short for today's pros?

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:  I saw Frankfurt a month ago.  It's been lengthened and toughened, but they destroyed all the original greens and built some very awkward replacements.  No one speaks of it very highly anymore.  Reminds me of a place I visited many years ago where the new course was pronounced to be better than an old classic - I told them it wasn't fair to achieve that by sabotaging the older course!

[JWinick]

Despite my original thread, the European Tour has been playing better courses these last two weeks.  Portstewart looked amazing - has anyone played it?

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom


A pity - I always liked the course. I remember the feel and look or it more now than the holes but it was always a pleasure to play. I remember do Wayne Grady hitting two drivers into 17, making eagle and winning in 1984.

[Emil Weber]

Mike and Tom,
I think it plays around 6900 yards as par 71, so with a beat bit of tweaking here and there and par 5s as 4s it might possibly do.
I am no fan of the new greens and bunkers and in fact I wrote a letter to the architect responsible (probably 8-9 years ago) asking for why he imposed that style on such a classic, low-key course, but sadly we never got a discussion started.
It's a valid argument that you can't say a layout has improved if the old design has been sabotaged, but what's there now is certainly more challenging, interesting to play and also better in shape than it was from sometime in the 80's/90's (when Kurt Rossknecht did some renovation work) up until 2005. The new design was very popular when I was a member there from 2006 - 2012 and the course has since risen in the German rankings - which is still not to say that I like what has been done, but the general golfing public (which in Germany is always a few years/decades behind US/UK/AUS) does. It seems to be difficult to find photos and details of the original layout from the late 20s, at least I was never able to find much. Sorry that this is getting really OT, but since I just rediscovered this, some imaginations from a few years back on how it could have been:

15th (2009):




16th (3 minutes later):






JWinick,
Porstewart looked fabulous on TV, especially that sunny saturday. It's a pretty nice 3 week stretch now. In regard to the initial question, I've tried to give my reply earlier, in that I think on average, ET courses are worse but perhaps improving. The big difference beeing that the span of quality is much wider than on the PGA tour.

[Richard Muldoon]

Tom & Thomas,
Tony & I played Granville last August.
Lots of good stuff there and well worth a visit. Some lovely 3's as befitting Colt but from memory a bit similar in being dune to dune.
Didn't play the 9 hole course but that looked fun & interesting.
We had lunch on the balcony with views over the par 3 9th and the food was excellent, a menu a few notches above your average British course.
Tony took a bunch of photos and promised to do a review, maybe this will be a reminder to get on with it!!

[Matthew Rose]

Not to derail this topic too much, but has any other course with a Par of 74 ever been used anywhere for anything?

[Mike_Clayton]

Matthew


Metropolitan was a par 74 for the Australian PGA in 1967 and 68. 10 and 15 were par 5s but not really legitimate ones at around 465 yards.
Kingston Heath was a par 74 until the late 60s - 1 and 17 were par 5s.
Wentworth was a par 74 for a long time (all those World Match Plays in the 60s) - with 1 and 3 being par 5s.

[Josh Stevens]

Amazing what a difference a bit of warmth makes when you combine Bermuda grass with sandy soil

We host a euro tour event in Perth - the members are playing normal Saturday competition and we have to clean out our lockers at end of day.

Sunday and Monday they close the place to set up, stock the bar and do a bit of mowing around the greens but there has been no change to main mowing lines.  Tues the pros arrive, pro-am on Wed, the main tournament Thurs to Sunday, Monday a round of golf for the volunteers and to allow pack up and then Tues is normal ladies competition day and then back to full mens day on Wed as nothing had happened other than a few bares spots where the grandstands were.

Clearly there is a lot of advance work on the greens before hand (although you wouldn't have known that from last years fiasco) but otherwise, its actually quite hard to notice anything different in the setup from normal week to week, other than back tees.

Not a mat in sight.

[Mike_Clayton]

Josh,


All because it's a good course to start with.
Kingston Heath could have an tournament at a weeks notice 52 weeks a year.

[Matthew Petersen]

Has anyone played the Green Eagle course, this week's site in Hamburg? The bunkering looks ... very ... round.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

It seems that many European courses have very few spectators. How do they make any money?


I've played Bremen. It's very tight - the trees have grown enormously.
I've played Winston Links. It was too hard for me and it looked like a moonscape, though I had to admire it.
I've played Hamburger - beautiful course apart from a couple of oddities near the end of the round. I think they've re-bunkered it since I was there.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,


I doubt many regular tour events outside of America made money from the gate. I guess they make it from sponsors and TV revenue - and the Ryder Cup:)

[Ulrich Mayring]

Greeneagle was designed by the owners themselves. This is an actual "Field of Dreams" project, designed and built by two golf enthusiasts with no money or prior experience.

Ulrich