[JWinick]

I was watching some of the television coverage of the BMW International Open, which was played at The Championship Course at Golfclub München Eichenried in Munich, Germany, and was struck by the mediocrity of the course.   The conditioning and difficulty of the bunkers just seemed to be a step below the PGA tour.   For example, the fairway bunkers had no faces to contend with (a couple inches tops).

It puzzles me that you have some of the greatest golf courses in the world in Europe, yet why does the European Tour play at such mediocre venues?    The PGA Tour has some great courses with regular stops (Riviera, Pebble Beach, Harbor Town, Quail Hollow, etc.) but aside from an event at St. Andrews, the European Tour just doesn't measure up. 

[Thomas Dai]

There are certainly quite a few mediocre courses used.
Why? In a word...money.
For example, Munich is BMW's HQ city.
Atb

[Scott Warren]

If Harbour Town and Quail Hollow are great courses, that sure doesnt translate to television.


St Andrews, Carnoustie and Kingsbarns in the Links Trophy, Castle Stuart in recent years for the Scottish Open, Portstewart for the Irish Open in a fortnight, Lake Karrinyup in Perth... There's as many Euro Tour courses that appeal as their are on the US Tour for me.

[JWinick]

Those are the exceptions and you have to try hard to not have a good venue for an Irish or Scottish Open!    Once you leave the courses you mentioned, the drop off is pretty steep.

If Harbour Town and Quail Hollow are great courses, that sure doesnt translate to television.


St Andrews, Carnoustie and Kingsbarns in the Links Trophy, Castle Stuart in recent years for the Scottish Open, Portstewart for the Irish Open in a fortnight, Lake Karrinyup in Perth... There's as many Euro Tour courses that appeal as their are on the US Tour for me.

[Jason Thurman]

It puzzles me that you have some of the greatest golf courses in the world in Europe, yet why does the European Tour play at such mediocre venues?

Replace the word "Europe" with the words "United States" and the word "European" with the acronym "PGA," and you have an equally true and trolling thought. There are 52 stops on this list. Which one do you think is the 15th best?

[Brian Finn]

It puzzles me that you have some of the greatest golf courses in the world in Europe, yet why does the European Tour play at such mediocre venues?

Replace the word "Europe" with the words "United States" and the word "European" with the acronym "PGA," and you have an equally true and trolling thought. There are 52 stops on this list. Which one do you think is the 15th best?

Without looking at the list, I would tend to agree with you.  It seems there are too many weeks where the PGA tour plays rather uninspired courses.  However, when I go through the list more closely, I have to go at least 25 deep before I honestly lose interest.  Below is a very rough order based on my interest in watching an event and/or playing the course...

Augusta National GC
Riviera CC
Pebble Beach GL
Royal Birkdale GC
Kingston Heath Golf Club
Muirfield Village GC
TPC Sawgrass
The Old White (Greenbrier)
Harbour Town GL
Plantation Course at Kapalua
East Lake GC
Quail Hollow
Sedgefield CC
Colonial CC
Stadium Course (PGA West)
Erin Hills
TPC Boston
Torrey Pines GC (South)
Innisbrook Resort (Copperhead)
Waialae CC
Sea Island Resort (Seaside)
Austin Country Club
Firestone CC (South)
Glen Abbey GC
El Camaleon GC
Bay Hill Club & Lodge
Eagle Point Golf Club
TPC River Highlands
TPC Scottsdale
GC of Houston
RTJ Trail (Grand National)
Glen Oaks Club

[Jason Thurman]

Brian, I generally agree in the sense that I think you and I both are perfectly happy to play good golf courses, even if they aren't the pinnacle course in their area. But once you get past your 15th-or-so-ranked US course, I think we're mostly looking at places that an overseas viewer might watch on their TV for three or four minutes early on a Saturday morning and deem "mediocre." I know I'd enjoy playing Colonial, but I also think I'd be a little disappointed with it if I held it to the standard of the very best courses its continent has to offer.


My point is less that the PGA Tour plays shitty courses, and more that the PGA Tour plays plenty of solid courses that are in a good market and have the right infrastructure to host a pro event. I suspect the European Tour is the same.

[JWinick]

Jason,


From a pure conditioning standpoint, it's not even close.    The European Tour courses don't seem to be as well conditioned and manicured.    I have never seen PGA Tour bunkers that are less hazardous than the ones I saw Sunday on the European Tour. 


It has always confounded me because there are so many amazing courses in Europe!  Maybe it's the fact that the US clubs are far more accommodating to the PGA Tour (i.e. Erin Hills shutting down for 9 months before / the members of Merion playing on mats in the fairway, etc.)


Best,
Jon

[JWinick]

Brian, why so low for Austin Country Club?   I thought it looked awesome on TV although I haven't played it.   

It puzzles me that you have some of the greatest golf courses in the world in Europe, yet why does the European Tour play at such mediocre venues?

Replace the word "Europe" with the words "United States" and the word "European" with the acronym "PGA," and you have an equally true and trolling thought. There are 52 stops on this list. Which one do you think is the 15th best?

Without looking at the list, I would tend to agree with you.  It seems there are too many weeks where the PGA tour plays rather uninspired courses.  However, when I go through the list more closely, I have to go at least 25 deep before I honestly lose interest.  Below is a very rough order based on my interest in watching an event and/or playing the course...

Augusta National GC
Riviera CC
Pebble Beach GL
Royal Birkdale GC
Kingston Heath Golf Club
Muirfield Village GC
TPC Sawgrass
The Old White (Greenbrier)
Harbour Town GL
Plantation Course at Kapalua
East Lake GC
Quail Hollow
Sedgefield CC
Colonial CC
Stadium Course (PGA West)
Erin Hills
TPC Boston
Torrey Pines GC (South)
Innisbrook Resort (Copperhead)
Waialae CC
Sea Island Resort (Seaside)
Austin Country Club
Firestone CC (South)
Glen Abbey GC
El Camaleon GC
Bay Hill Club & Lodge
Eagle Point Golf Club
TPC River Highlands
TPC Scottsdale
GC of Houston
RTJ Trail (Grand National)
Glen Oaks Club

[Tom_Doak]

From a pure conditioning standpoint, it's not even close.    The European Tour courses don't seem to be as well conditioned and manicured.    I have never seen PGA Tour bunkers that are less hazardous than the ones I saw Sunday on the European Tour.

That's two separate subjects.


From a pure conditioning standpoint, nobody in Europe wants to spend as much to belong to a golf club as US private club members will pay.  Also, more and more in Europe, the EU's restrictions on herbicide and pesticide use lead to very different outcomes as to what a course looks like on TV.


Bunkers are a different story; there are a lot of courses on the Continent where the bunkers are not at all scary, because they weren't designed to be.


It helps to remember that most of the Continent had other things besides golf to worry about from 1914-23 and 1939-50.  [Golf courses were not the first priority to rebuild after the wars were over.]  There is just not the same continuity of design tradition over there than there is in the UK [which was never invaded] or the USA.

[Sean_A]

From a pure conditioning standpoint, it's not even close.    The European Tour courses don't seem to be as well conditioned and manicured.    I have never seen PGA Tour bunkers that are less hazardous than the ones I saw Sunday on the European Tour.

That's two separate subjects.


From a pure conditioning standpoint, nobody in Europe wants to spend as much to belong to a golf club as US private club members will pay.  Also, more and more in Europe, the EU's restrictions on herbicide and pesticide use lead to very different outcomes as to what a course looks like on TV.


Bunkers are a different story; there are a lot of courses on the Continent where the bunkers are not at all scary, because they weren't designed to be.


It helps to remember that most of the Continent had other things besides golf to worry about from 1914-23 and 1939-50.  [Golf courses were not the first priority to rebuild after the wars were over.]  There is just not the same continuity of design tradition over there than there is in the UK [which was never successfully invaded] or the USA.

Helped you out Tom 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

It helps to remember that most of the Continent had other things besides golf to worry about from 1914-23 and 1939-50.  [Golf courses were not the first priority to rebuild after the wars were over.]  There is just not the same continuity of design tradition over there than there is in the UK [which was never invaded] or the USA.

Quite right Tom and some Continental courses, like those on the coast of Holland changed as a result, as did quite a few courses, including several famous ones, in the UK.

As a British Channel Isles, which were invaded, historical aside, both Royal Jersey and Royal Guernsey were 'modified' by fortifications installed by German visitors during WWII. Two courses still well worth playing though, as will be La Moye (on Jersey). The 1st at Royal Jersey is most definitely a hole in the "once played, never forgotten" category. And La Moye used to hold an event on both the European and later Senior Tour.

Atb

[Tom_Doak]

As a British Channel Isles, which were invaded, historical aside, both Royal Jersey and Royal Guernsey were 'modified' by fortifications installed by German visitors during WWII. Two courses still well worth playing though, as will be La Moye (on Jersey). The 1st at Royal Jersey is most definitely a hole in the "once played, never forgotten" category. And La Moye used to hold an event on both the European and later Senior Tour.

I'm hoping to get out to play those [and Granville] next year prior to the Renaissance Cup in St. Emilion.  Looks like a beautiful part of the world.

[Jason Topp]

I have been told the European Tour imposes extensive specifications that apply when building a tournament course related to slope on the greens, available pin positions and, I assume, a million other things. 

I would guess that those specifications yield courses that look quite similar even though they are located all over the world. 

[Thomas Dai]

As a British Channel Isles, which were invaded, historical aside, both Royal Jersey and Royal Guernsey were 'modified' by fortifications installed by German visitors during WWII. Two courses still well worth playing though, as will be La Moye (on Jersey). The 1st at Royal Jersey is most definitely a hole in the "once played, never forgotten" category. And La Moye used to hold an event on both the European and later Senior Tour.

I'm hoping to get out to play those [and Granville] next year prior to the Renaissance Cup in St. Emilion.  Looks like a beautiful part of the world.

I doubt you'll be disappointed by the golf and the Channel Isles are indeed a beautiful and interesting part of the world. Somewhere I had thoughts of revisiting this year, although not likely to happen this summer.
The course at Granville has long interested me. I believe there's is a ferry to/from Jersey and Granville, which sounds convenient for golfers.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

I have been told the European Tour imposes extensive specifications that apply when building a tournament course related to slope on the greens, available pin positions and, I assume, a million other things. 

I would guess that those specifications yield courses that look quite similar even though they are located all over the world.

PGA Tour Design Services does exactly the same thing.


The funny part is that most of the older courses players say they like are in violation of some of their specifications ... especially the one that says there can be no more than 2.25% slope in areas for hole locations.

[Bill Warnick]

Profession Golf is not a game it's a business. Check out the French Open at the Golf National. Great conditioning on a Robert von Hagge design.

[Jon Wiggett]

It puzzles me that you have some of the greatest golf courses in the world in Europe, yet why does the European Tour play at such mediocre venues?

Replace the word "Europe" with the words "United States" and the word "European" with the acronym "PGA," and you have an equally true and trolling thought. There are 52 stops on this list. Which one do you think is the 15th best?

Without looking at the list, I would tend to agree with you.  It seems there are too many weeks where the PGA tour plays rather uninspired courses.  However, when I go through the list more closely, I have to go at least 25 deep before I honestly lose interest.  Below is a very rough order based on my interest in watching an event and/or playing the course...

Augusta National GC
Riviera CC
Pebble Beach GL
Royal Birkdale GC
Kingston Heath Golf Club
Muirfield Village GC
TPC Sawgrass
The Old White (Greenbrier)
Harbour Town GL
Plantation Course at Kapalua
East Lake GC
Quail Hollow
Sedgefield CC
Colonial CC
Stadium Course (PGA West)
Erin Hills
TPC Boston
Torrey Pines GC (South)
Innisbrook Resort (Copperhead)
Waialae CC
Sea Island Resort (Seaside)
Austin Country Club
Firestone CC (South)
Glen Abbey GC
El Camaleon GC
Bay Hill Club & Lodge
Eagle Point Golf Club
TPC River Highlands
TPC Scottsdale
GC of Houston
RTJ Trail (Grand National)
Glen Oaks Club

Had to smile when I read the list and 3 of the first 5 are not PGA Tour run events

[Mark Pearce]

It puzzles me that you have some of the greatest golf courses in the world in Europe, yet why does the European Tour play at such mediocre venues?

Replace the word "Europe" with the words "United States" and the word "European" with the acronym "PGA," and you have an equally true and trolling thought. There are 52 stops on this list. Which one do you think is the 15th best?

Without looking at the list, I would tend to agree with you.  It seems there are too many weeks where the PGA tour plays rather uninspired courses.  However, when I go through the list more closely, I have to go at least 25 deep before I honestly lose interest.  Below is a very rough order based on my interest in watching an event and/or playing the course...

Augusta National GC
Riviera CC
Pebble Beach GL
Royal Birkdale GC
Kingston Heath Golf Club
Muirfield Village GC
TPC Sawgrass
The Old White (Greenbrier)
Harbour Town GL
Plantation Course at Kapalua
East Lake GC
Quail Hollow
Sedgefield CC
Colonial CC
Stadium Course (PGA West)
Erin Hills
TPC Boston
Torrey Pines GC (South)
Innisbrook Resort (Copperhead)
Waialae CC
Sea Island Resort (Seaside)
Austin Country Club
Firestone CC (South)
Glen Abbey GC
El Camaleon GC
Bay Hill Club & Lodge
Eagle Point Golf Club
TPC River Highlands
TPC Scottsdale
GC of Houston
RTJ Trail (Grand National)
Glen Oaks Club

Had to smile when I read the list and 3 of the first 5 are not PGA Tour run events

Yes.  In fact I spent a while wondering which states Birkdale and KH were in.

[Mike_Clayton]

I played the first BMW in Munich and the course unimaginative at best. It was funny - after the first practice round everybody thought it was quite hard. Then David Feherty shot 62 in the first round and no one ever since considered it hard again.
We played a lot of good courses in the 80s - Sunningdale,Chantilly, Falstebro, pre-Ernie Wentworth, Gleneagles, Birkdale,Puerto De Hierro, de Pan,Kenner,El Saler, Portmarnock - and some shockers as well.
In the mid-90s there was a clear move to play lesser courses for very good commercial reasons.
Moving the French Open from Chantilly and the Irish from Portmarnock was the beginning probably although the Irish seems to have gone back to better courses after a run on expensive modern 'American' parks - K Club, Mt Juliet, Druids Glen.


Pro golf now the world over is more about good conditioning,'fairness' suitable length (7000plus) than architecture.

[Josh Stevens]

How many of UKs great old inland tracks actually have the space or the length?

Could you imagine modern pros at Sunningdale Old, Swinley or Woking?

Many US venues seem to be purpose built tournament facilities that developed with the modern pro in mind, or they are old country clubs set outside the cities and have lots of land.

Most of the lovely old UK tracks are from a different age and so are smaller in scale, and most of Australia's best for example, unlike the US, are actually smack in the middle of the cities and so are hemmed in.

[Adam Lawrence]

How many of UKs great old inland tracks actually have the space or the length?

Could you imagine modern pros at Sunningdale Old, Swinley or Woking?

Many US venues seem to be purpose built tournament facilities that developed with the modern pro in mind, or they are old country clubs set outside the cities and have lots of land.

Most of the lovely old UK tracks are from a different age and so are smaller in scale, and most of Australia's best for example, unlike the US, are actually smack in the middle of the cities and so are hemmed in.

One of the cool things about Notts is that it is one of the few classic old courses that has the length (it has been over 7,300 yards for as long as I can remember) and space to be a practical venue for pro events. They're hosting Open Final Qualifying next week -- I shall be interested to hear how the course is set up and see how the pros go.

[jeffwarne]

How many of UKs great old inland tracks actually have the space or the length?

Could you imagine modern pros at Sunningdale Old, Swinley or Woking?

No, but I'd sure like to...


Are the Euro tour courses really anymore mediocre than our TPC flavor of the day(a day in 1988) dogtracks?


Stunning to me how we have allowed the powers that be to dawdle so much that the great courses of the world are either irrelevant
or have to be bastardized

[Josh Stevens]

Is anyone here a member of a regular or better still, an irregular US PGA tour stop?

If so,can you tell me, how far in advance of the tournament does the course prep start, how far in advance are the members tossed off, and for those irregular stops, what is difference between the preparation regime and the normal week to week maintenance?

[Mike_Clayton]

Josh,


Sunningdale is a perfect tournament venue. There is so much space for the village (on the regular range),parking, the range (18 New) and all the area between 13 and 14 for people to congregate and watch many holes from there or close by. The practice putting green is one of the biggest and best in Britain.
The course itself is too short for modern professional play and that was probably so in 1990.
But - John Rahm apparently hit a wedge into every par 4 on Sunday at the Irish Open - so what can you do?


No room at Woking or Swinley - fortunately.

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