[Jason Topp]

The media is repeating the mantra that Erin Hills is not links course. Everyone knows the course is not technically a links because it sits on kettle moraine land.  However, I believe it is an exemplar of a modern links course - at least as such a course is played at the professional level.

The primary reasoning I have seen is that the greens are elevated above the fairway and require aerial approach shots.   However, I would make the following points:

- How often do you see professionals run approach shots along the ground in the Open?  It is pretty rare.

- There are plenty of classic links holes that require an aerial approach - Foxy, Alps, the Eden, the Pit, 18 at Carnoustie, 1 at the Old Course, 6 at Royal Dornoch, 16 at Turnberry

- In today's game, I would argue that large greens serve the role of the ground game - at least at higher levels of play.  If one needs to land the ball on the front of a green in order to get it to stop downwind how is that different than landing it in the fairway short of the green in order to get it to stop?

-  Erin Hills does allow one to use the ground to get to the green - in most cases the front of the greens are open and short grass is in front.  The slopes tend to make such shots a poor option but I suspect we will see them used in some cases.

What Erin Hills does have is firm ground, wide fairways, fescue rough, rolling land, exposure to the wind and severe bunkers.  That sounds like a links to me. 

It sounds as if the course will get soaked over the course of the week so this event should be a good test as to whether it retains links like characteristics when wet.

[Mike Wagner]

The media is repeating the mantra that Erin Hills is not links course. Everyone knows the course is not technically a links because it sits on kettle moraine land.  However, I believe it is an exemplar of a modern links course - at least as such a course is played at the professional level.

The primary reasoning I have seen is that the greens are elevated above the fairway and require aerial approach shots.   However, I would make the following points:

- How often do you see professionals run approach shots along the ground in the Open?  It is pretty rare.

- There are plenty of classic links holes that require an aerial approach - Foxy, Alps, the Eden, the Pit, 18 at Carnoustie, 1 at the Old Course, 6 at Royal Dornoch, 16 at Turnberry

- In today's game, I would argue that large greens serve the role of the ground game - at least at higher levels of play.  If one needs to land the ball on the front of a green in order to get it to stop downwind how is that different than landing it in the fairway short of the green in order to get it to stop?

-  Erin Hills does allow one to use the ground to get to the green - in most cases the front of the greens are open and short grass is in front.  The slopes tend to make such shots a poor option but I suspect we will see them used in some cases.

What Erin Hills does have is firm ground, wide fairways, fescue rough, rolling land, exposure to the wind and severe bunkers.  That sounds like a links to me. 

It sounds as if the course will get soaked over the course of the week so this event should be a good test as to whether it retains links like characteristics when wet.

Jason -


You make good points.  I would call it a hybrid - there's nothing quite like it, and as you hear players describe it, you'll hear the word "linksy" a bunch.  The reason it can't quite get there as a true lies course (IMO) is the greens. They're too accepting of the aerial game and they're absolutely perfect.  This is not a bad thing, as it truly is a hybrid.  I told Bob one time it's the Pink Floyd of golf courses

[Tom_Doak]

Neither Foxy nor the Eden hole require an aerial approach.


If you want to call Erin Hills a "modern links" by your own definition, that's fine, but someone from the UK would not call it that, I think.  Of my own work, I call Pacific Dunes a links (I can quote the lady from the LGU who was there for the Curtis Cup), but I don't use the term for Ballyneal or Dismal.  They play like a links, but they're not links.


PS  How much rough is there adjacent to greens at Erin Hills?  Are they mowing tight all around the greens?

[Jason Topp]

Neither Foxy nor the Eden hole require an aerial approach.

Under that definition, neither do the holes at Erin Hills.  The only one I can think of where it is not possible to roll the ball onto the green is 9.  In most other cases, rolling the ball onto the green is not a reasonable option from most angles, just like Foxy and the Eden.

[Jason Topp]

PS  How much rough is there adjacent to greens at Erin Hills?  Are they mowing tight all around the greens?

I do not recall much based on the video flyovers I saw.

[Phil McDade]

Well, EHills dry plays pretty zippy -- it did for the US Am back in 2011, when it played faster and firmer than several of the U.K. links I've seen and played (faster than Carnoustie in 1999, e.g.).


But it also demands a lot of aerial approaches, so in some respects it doesn't play like some folks think a links ought to play.


Tom -- I haven't been out there, but past viewings indicated there is a lot of short grass around many of the greens -- I suspect at 1, certainly on 2, the tightly mown severe fall-offs around 7, 14 and 18, and others like 6, 10, and 13. But there is also deep traps and junk very close to greens at 4 (for those going over) and 9, for instance, where recovery will be difficult just getting back to the green in reasonable shape.

[Sean_A]

I know it is stating the obvious, but aerial or ground style of architecture has nada to with the definition of links. Is this another case of trying to ride the tails of marketing?  Its time these warm weather/snow covered "links" come up with their own marketing rather than muddle with very old and well established terminology.

Ciao

[JJShanley]

Of my own work, I call Pacific Dunes a links (I can quote the lady from the LGU who was there for the Curtis Cup), but I don't use the term for Ballyneal or Dismal.  They play like a links, but they're not links.

Would you not call Renaissance a links course, or did you just limit your examples to your American work?

[Jason Topp]

I know it is stating the obvious, but aerial or ground style of architecture has nada to with the definition of links. Is this another case of trying to ride the tails of marketing?  Its time these warm weather/snow covered "links" come up with their own marketing rather than muddle with very old and well established terminology.

Ciao

Fair question.  I have no skin in the game regarding marketing but it does strike me that many modern courses can fairly be described as playing like a links course.  The difference I see is that rather than using the ground to get to the green, many courses have large greens and the player is required to account for the roll of the ball on the green surface rather than on the way there.  With large enough and firm enough greens, I am not sure there is much of a difference in how a course actually plays.

[Sean_A]

I can buy that any number of courses can play like links when the weather co-operates.  The problem with so called warm weather links etc is the weather often doesn't cooperate.  Stuff like prolonged periods of snow and extreme heat interfer which either causes shut down or drastic input to keep the grass alive, both of which severe ubiquitously hamper the playing characteristics    A true links is based on cool weather grasses in moderate climates...which is why geography matters. When you play a links in good nick with predominately cool weather grasses the difference compared to a close proximation of non-links can be quite dramatic. Unfortunately, this will almost without exception mean the course does not have auto watering.  Unfortunately two, a huge percentage of links are compromised by modern ideals of green keeping.  They are in effect hybrids.  I would suggest this is what the Erin Hills of this world have been able to duplicate quite well.  Don't get me wrong, I applaud the concept, but I still think its best not alter definitions that have been used and understood for generations.  Just accept the course for what it is rather than trying to hang a false label on it.

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

EHills is talked about as a links course much more so here on GCA than the folks who own and run it.

[Garland Bayley]

What are the fairway and green grasses? You mention the fescue rough, but it seems to me that many true links courses don't have fescue rough.

Also, where is the reveal? Presumably a true links course is by the sea. Peper and Campbell don't consider Chambers Bay to be a links, because it is not by the sea. Good luck with Erin Hills qualifying.

[Jason Topp]

What are the fairway and green grasses? You mention the fescue rough, but it seems to me that many true links courses don't have fescue rough.

Also, where is the reveal? Presumably a true links course is by the sea. Peper and Campbell don't consider Chambers Bay to be a links, because it is not by the sea. Good luck with Erin Hills qualifying.

I believe the fairways are fescue and the greens are bent.

[Garland Bayley]

Are the fairways still bouncy when wet?

Many courses by the sea are not links, because the ground becomes soft in the rain.

[Phil McDade]

Are the fairways still bouncy when wet?

Many courses by the sea are not links, because the ground becomes soft in the rain.

They have poured 1200 tons of sand on that place annually to get it to play bouncy (scroll down for revealing cut-away photo by our beloved leader):


http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/erin-hills/

[David Davis]

There are so many of these "inland links" courses now days. Erin Hills by definition is NOT a links course. It may look similar, play similar under certain conditions, even have similar grasses but a links it is not.


Links course = the link between the fertile ground and the sea. Dunes landscape etc etc.


The most frequent term I've heard used for this type of course is "inland links".

[Peter Pallotta]

What Sean writes in post #9 seems spot on to me.
Just an aside: been looking at photos/video of the course from many angles; surprised that natural hills and swales and mounds can end up looking/feeling so unnatural.
A nod to the importance of (to me) the most mysterious/artistic aspect of gca - finishing work.
In the context of the "do we appreciate individual holes or the course as a whole" question (for me the latter), the finishing work is crucial: part of the magic that fosters a whole-course experience, the glue that holds it together.
Peter   

[MClutterbuck]

Neither Foxy nor the Eden hole require an aerial approach.


If you want to call Erin Hills a "modern links" by your own definition, that's fine, but someone from the UK would not call it that, I think.  Of my own work, I call Pacific Dunes a links (I can quote the lady from the LGU who was there for the Curtis Cup), but I don't use the term for Ballyneal or Dismal.  They play like a links, but they're not links.

I am with Tom on this. If Erin Hills is a links course, please join me at El Desafio for some links golf in the Andes.


We talk about linksy design elements, but would be completely out of place calling it a links even if we cut down every single pine tree on the outside perimeter (existing broom and gorse would take over), as ER did with their trees. And from what I see, we have wider, firmer and faster fescue fairways, a more adequate irrigation plan excluding wall to wall design, real native tall fescue areas, more wind, and you can bump and run or putt your way onto every single green...


By the way, does Gullane #1 get discussed by George Peper as a links course?

[Mark Pearce]

I have no skin in the game regarding marketing but it does strike me that many modern courses can fairly be described as playing like a links course. 

I sometimes hit the ball like a drunken llama.  That does not make me a llama.  Nor does firmness make Erin Hills a links course.

[Thomas Dai]

From what I've seen a faux-links at best, maybe not even that. A flock of sheep might be generally useful. Still wouldn't be a links though.
atb

[Tom_Doak]

JJShanley:  I only named a few of my American courses to make a distinction where I have work on both sides.  Among my other courses, Barnbougle and Tara Iti are surely links.  St. Andrews Beach, half a mile from the sea and all sand, but probably not a links according to a Scot.  And The Renaissance Club, like its neighbor Gullane, probably gets called "part links" depending on the judge.


If you want a new term for the rest just call them a "dunes course" as indeed many are christened.

[David Davis]

JJShanley:  I only named a few of my American courses to make a distinction where I have work on both sides.  Among my other courses, Barnbougle and Tara Iti are surely links.  St. Andrews Beach, half a mile from the sea and all sand, but probably not a links according to a Scot.  And The Renaissance Club, like its neighbor Gullane, probably gets called "part links" depending on the judge.


If you want a new term for the rest just call them a "dunes course" as indeed many are christened.

Oh no, not the dreaded dunes course. That's a term out of my worst nightmares...as you know our board have been insisting that our true links course is a dunes course for years ha ha....so please anything but that, let's not make that an official term.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I like faux links as a term. It has the "links" bit, so as to speak to its characteristics, and it has "faux", which very clearly says "not really".

Ulrich

[Garland Bayley]

...
By the way, does Gullane #1 get discussed by George Peper as a links course?

Yes, they note it plays as bouncy and firm in winter as in summer.

[MClutterbuck]

...
By the way, does Gullane #1 get discussed by George Peper as a links course?

Yes, they note it plays as bouncy and firm in winter as in summer.

Interesting. I could easily have imagined that they considered different terrain, especially the higher holes.

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