[Mike Sweeney]

Way back in the old days of GCA, we had an epic outing at Sand Hills, Nebraska in 2005 with a cast of characters:




Neil Regan, Pat Mucci, Tom Huckaby, Tom Paul, Ran Morrissett, Gene Greco, Mike Sweeney, and George Bahto

Sand Hills, Nebraska - June 2005

Some of them have left this world, some have left GCA, and some don't post much any longer for a variety of reasons. Now there are two




Prout's Neck -  Scarborough, Maine, May 2017


Ran's passion continues, and his evolution of what is "great architecture" continues to evolve and may have increased since that meeting at Sand Hills. I was amazed at his knowledge for the topic and the passion for the "smaller courses" that he was being exposed to in Maine.  As I was leaving on Monday, he made the whimsical remark,

"We have to stick together!" 


I had to get on the road before I could ask for more information. So I ask you, members of GCA, - How do you see us sticking together in the passion for Golf Course Architecture, and what is your updated definition?

[Thomas Dai]

Not necessary a favourite but someone has to push the ball into rolling on this thread so -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lj0XD1NFa1I
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

All the popular kids on their super secret invitation only Sand Hills trip. 12 years later I've got 13 reasons why I wasn't invited.

[BCowan]

All the popular kids on their super secret invitation only Sand Hills trip. 12 years later I've got 13 reasons why I wasn't invited.

John,


I think a GCA outing is in order.  Isnt there a Langford ur a member at in Indiana? 

[Mike Sweeney]

All the popular kids on their super secret invitation only Sand Hills trip. 12 years later I've got 13 reasons why I wasn't invited.

I took a vow to not be snarky the other night after a second bottle of wine with Ran and Mr Moore


There have been few here more generous than those in that picture. There were a lot of good things that stemmed from that trip including a new Sand Hills member that joined SHGC. The generosity by Dr Gene is a piece of the puzzle in expanding the Sand Hills GC and the region to others.


Many in that picture have contributed to my son's charities over the years.


Many in that picture have served on a variety of golf committees over the years.


For me, the chasing of pegs in the peg board race is over. I really enjoy the course and atmosphere of Yale. I would rather play Gulph Mills with Tom Paul rather than Merion with a "hit and runner". I think Ran's point is, there needs to be some sort of bifurcation of golf away from PGA/USGA Championship style courses.


And maybe this is the group to bring back the simplicity of golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

Inviting people to your private club is no more generous than posting a pic of your kegger on Snapchat.

[Mike Sweeney]

Inviting people to your private club is no more generous than posting a pic of your kegger on Snapchat.

While I took a vow of "no snarkiness", I am allowed to constructively point out snarkiness!!


Please re-define "private club". I think the definition has changed for some/many since 2005, and we were in Maine when the conversation occurred.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - if I knew what we were sticking together *for* and how we were supposed to go about it, I'd certainly consider sticking together with you all. But to be honest, neither the goal here nor the process have ever been *less clear* to me than they are now. You imply a kind of consensus opinion/shared value system amongst us, but I don't think it exists at all. In fact, I think what you'd find just below the gca.com surface is that significant schisms are at play here and cross purposes are at work. Those differences bubble up frequently, though they rarely come to a boil, mostly because there is little actually at stake for any of us at the present moment. In other words: if there was ever a time when this board was - for better or worse - actually comprised of 'like minded individuals' that time has certainly now passed; and I haven't even mentioned the increasing (and increasingly obvious) role of personal and professional agendas and blatant self promotion that feature so prominently in many of our discussions these days.
All of which is to say: you're a good man and a smart one, and if you find 3 or 4 other good and smart people to truly stick together with, consider yourself fortunate.
In short, Mike: you're not in Maine anymore, and even less so are you in Sand Hills
Peter

[Jeff Bergeron]

All the popular kids on their super secret invitation only Sand Hills trip. 12 years later I've got 13 reasons why I wasn't invited.

13 is a little low

[BCrosby]

Mike -

Could you post the names of the people in the '05 SH pic?

You, I and others have been hanging around here a long time. Though I've met only a few of the people I talk with at GCA, I've felt an immediate bond with those I have met. So I think I know what Ran is saying without being able to describe it very well.

We should cherish our little community. There are very few like it.

Finally, your '05 pic reminds me that I've wanted to say something about the people I've talked with here over the years who have passed on. It is odd losing a friend you have never met in person. Grieving his death is maybe an oxymoron, but it is what happens nonetheless.

Thanks for the thread.

Bob

[BCowan]

All the popular kids on their super secret invitation only Sand Hills trip. 12 years later I've got 13 reasons why I wasn't invited.

I took a vow to not be snarky the other night after a second bottle of wine with Ran and Mr Moore


There have been few here more generous than those in that picture. There were a lot of good things that stemmed from that trip including a new Sand Hills member that joined SHGC. The generosity by Dr Gene is a piece of the puzzle in expanding the Sand Hills GC and the region to others.


Many in that picture have contributed to my son's charities over the years.


Many in that picture have served on a variety of golf committees over the years.


For me, the chasing of pegs in the peg board race is over. I really enjoy the course and atmosphere of Yale. I would rather play Gulph Mills with Tom Paul rather than Merion with a "hit and runner". I think Ran's point is, there needs to be some sort of bifurcation of golf away from PGA/USGA Championship style courses.


And maybe this is the group to bring back the simplicity of golf.

Mike,


     It's kinda of refreshing that you all played Sand Hills and now u don't care now where u tee it.  I'm the same way, there is more fun to be had at a Doak 5, with fun people that are knowledgeable.  That's kinda of what I miss from my youth. It's better to be ignorant.  Can't stand the constant best of the best obsession.  This is supposed to be a fellowship of addicts.  Put the peg in the ground, play fast, and discuss over adult beverages afterwards.  Much can be learned from average track imo, if one has learned anything in their journey of knowledge.


   I don't think Group Thought is good for the website. 

[John Kirk]

I can name them.  From left to right...

N. Regan
P. Mucci
T. Huckaby
T. Paul
R. Morrissett
G. Greco
M. Sweeney
G. Bahto

[Ronald Montesano]

This is the most ballsy thing that anyone has written on GCA, and I have no proper salute for it. I will respond in kind, with a clearing of the soul of my own.


Instead of "Your Last Ten" lists, we should instead have "Your Net Worth" lists, or "Your Annual Income" lists.


There is at least one on this list with a five-figures-left-of-the-decimal income, and he is damned proud to belong. He figured out long ago that his meagre salary would not allow him to play the elite courses, to which many/all on this list belong. He started coaching, writing, taking photos, anything to get on those courses and see/preserve them for his ego/soul.


Unlike Mike Sweeney, he is not done putting pegs in the board. He wants to see those courses. He knows what it's like to be told that he is not welcome, not even to photograph the course for free and leave the DVD with the club in gratitude, without playing a shot. This is a small offense in a world of great ones, but it does help paint the edges.


Peter, more than anyone, has demonstrated that there is a line between knowing about the course and knowing the course. For those of us who may never get to play many of these courses, who will certainly never occupy a financial run high enough to know people who belong to these clubs, GCA is both a boon and an unreachable star.


I've been accused of many things on this site, not one of which is true. I'm quick to lose my temper. I've had a few phone calls from the brass to discuss my choice of words. GCA for some people is a mild hobby, while for others, it is an incurable passion. Note that I'm not discussing gca, which is a career and life choice for a third group.


Before we stick together, we need to determine who we-GCA are. As our 2016 election showed us, we are not 50 united states in the purest sense of the word. We can be more than we are, just as we can be more than we are on GCA.

Mike - if I knew what we were sticking together *for* and how we were supposed to go about it, I'd certainly consider sticking together with you all. But to be honest, neither the goal here nor the process have ever been *less clear* to me than they are now. You imply a kind of consensus opinion/shared value system amongst us, but I don't think it exists at all. In fact, I think what you'd find just below the gca.com surface is that significant schisms are at play here and cross purposes are at work. Those differences bubble up frequently, though they rarely come to a boil, mostly because there is little actually at stake for any of us at the present moment. In other words: if there was ever a time when this board was - for better or worse - actually comprised of 'like minded individuals' that time has certainly now passed; and I haven't even mentioned the increasing (and increasingly obvious) role of personal and professional agendas and blatant self promotion that feature so prominently in many of our discussions these days.
All of which is to say: you're a good man and a smart one, and if you find 3 or 4 other good and smart people to truly stick together with, consider yourself fortunate.
In short, Mike: you're not in Maine anymore, and even less so are you in Sand Hills
Peter

[BCowan]

The point of your last 10 was to show what diversity one had in their list. It was really telling into what person I'd tee it with or loathe.  To bring class envy in is repulsive. Then to bring the election in is classless.  Actually we were states with our own culture back in the day before we embraced group thought. 


   To wanna play tracks your shunned at is beyond disturbing.  I fight elitism all the time, but I wouldn't sell my mother down the river to play. 


  This thread has really gone down the toliet.  Looking forward to Sweeney reply, I sent him

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm sorry but the super secret invitation only outing is the darkest aspect of this site. Segregation, pure and simple.

[Sean_A]

Sweeney asked a question.  I don't have the answer as to how we can stick together or even if that is desirable. However, as Bob writes, I do feel a certain kinship with many on the board...many of whom I haven't met.  It doesn't seem like 13 years ago when I searched the web for Painswick and found this site.  Whatever friendships may be forged and proclamations made, I hope to be searching for "Painswick" on this site in another 13 years.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Even now Huck is scouring over the list of 5th Major participants deciding who is worthy parcing out invites. Disgusting. You don't kiss the ring of a friend.

[Sean_A]

Even now Huck is scouring over the list of 5th Major participants deciding who is worthy parcing out invites. Disgusting. You don't kiss the ring of a friend.

JAKAB

Are you off your meds again?  I don't know if you are serious, but why not be happy for people who get invited to lovely courses? 

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Ron - thanks, but I didn't think I was being ballsy; I thought I was just stating the obvious. To me, the obvious includes:
- that fostering the next generation of private club members is incompatible with encouraging the retail golfing culture
- that seeking true sustainability is at odds with applauding either (input dependent) Merion or (8000 yard long) Erin Hills as US Open sites
- that dedicating an entire website to celebrating the greatest examples of gca worldwide is the very opposite of honouring the low key quality designs in one's own back yard
- that a renovation is not a restoration, no matter how many photos you've studied
- that if almost everyone is finding 'hidden gems' almost everywhere then it's likely that almost no one is actually finding any hidden gems anywhere

There are countless more differences between us/our beliefs, even setting aside the political and financial ones you mention. So my question to Mike was: stick together on what? for what purpose? to what end?

Peter

[Ben Sims]

How do you see us sticking together in the passion for Golf Course Architecture..?

Genuinely--not superficially--looking for ways to increase access to the very best of golf architecture. They get it right overseas. We kind of suck. If the best you can do is a photo of the washed on a porch in Nebraska, you're doing it wrong. And before anyone gets pithy, remember, high level golf architecture is a place normally reserved for the older generation and their status in life. It ain't up to the junior executives...yet.

[BCowan]

Sweeney asked a question.  I don't have the answer as to how we can stick together or even if that is desirable. However, as Bob writes, I do feel a certain kinship with many on the board...many of whom I haven't met.  It doesn't seem like 13 years ago when I searched the web for Painswick and found this site.  Whatever friendships may be forged and proclamations made, I hope to be searching for "Painswick" on this site in another 13 years.

Ciao

Excellent post

[mike_malone]

I played in our big Irish/Italian Day today and my partner who has been a member for 30 years turned to me after a few holes and said " do you dream every night about how to change this course?".


I suggested the ideas were Flynn's not mine and he was more interested then.


If I didn't "stick together " with those who love golf architecture here I would do what my best buddy suggests " just play the course and leave it alone ".


But everyone loves all the changes made in the last 19 years since I joined and I couldn't do that if I didn't have this community .

[RJ_Daley]

I'll try to keep this brief, although I feel like I could go many paragraphs on this subject.  I have greatly enjoyed my years on GCA.com, and feel like I was one of the early contributors.  So, what sparked my many years of daily obsession with posting?  What lured me to travel to many of the GCA gatherings from organizing a hybrid Bravenet/GCA.com outting at Southern Pines, Pine Needles, Mid Pines and a few got on #2 in 1998,  to subsequent Dixie Cups, Kings Putters, to Buda Cup?   

Well, the threshold criteria was to think I actually knew a little of the subject having tried to develop a golf course after self study of turf management and golf course design and construction techniques.  Then I found others of similar passion and knowledge on a chance search that landed me on the Old Tommy Naccarato, Tom Huckaby, Redanman, Mike Golden, et al Bravenet site.  Suddenly we had a network of GCA fanatics and plenty of fun comments and a few meetings to do what we love best - play on a nice golf course that we knew why it was so.  Ran and his Bro John, Dad, and his close supporters whilst in OZ nurtured the idea of GCA.com and many other like minded found they weren't so strange to obsess about this subject, and we caught on like wild fire and the web sent us world-wide.  It spread through many circles of golf society from the muni golfers, wanna-be golf course developer-owners of which I had a few near commitments, variety of club members and greens chairmen and other club officials, USGA officials and administrative personnel,  golf writers of GCA and the game, superintendents, and of course our contributing architects of these fields of play; thus the discussions on which we were bound.  People from all walks of life were generous, engaged and participants in these GCA.com daily discussions, discoveries, history, and debates.  All was passionate........AND NEW to those early fanatics. 

But, I believe I am like most of the early GCA.com folks, in that I have acquired a large number of the books to add to many I already had pre-GCA.com, and feel like those daily obsessive discussions just started to repeat themselves to the point we were saying the same things many times over for years.  As I age, I feel like I have forgotten much of what I used to be 'up on'.   But, that doesn't even bother me anymore.  It is more interesting to see a newbie come along and discover or mention something many of us have discussed ad nauseum over a decade ago.  Some very passionate newer generation GCA.com contributors really took it to higher levels which was exciting to see their research and discoveries. 

I think the most corrosive thing that has been a distraction and turn-off are the folks that want to be 'too cute by half' with the cutting and biting comments that put others down.  I like a good barb as much as the next guy, but we have seen it over and over that some folks don't know how to back off.  And, many just get tired of that. 

As for Mike's recounting of Ran's hope to 'stick together',  I think the faithful and real folks who love this subject and want to share with others for all the right reasons, will stick together and continue to find each other just as we early ones found an avenue by chance, stumbling onto the two websites that merged here in GCA.com. and engaging with others around the web who feel similarly   Where there is interest and good will, there will be community, IMHO.   It is simple as 'sharing is caring'. 

The most important thing to keep this going is make an effort to meet and enjoy and respect fellow contributors by meeting up to play the game and discuss what you all enjoy.  And, write and celebrate about it here. 

[Mike_Young]

Michael,
I've always seen this site as  idealist trying to discuss with realist.  And dudes who take themselves too seriously trying to discuss with those who don't.  And we are discussing a subject with an extremely low barrier to entry.  We have idiots who set up blogs and become golf writers, we have writers who walk out on a site and become golf architects.  We have band campers who sense they are the world's best raters and we have some big time players who never say a word.  But that's the way life and  in all we are just a small slice of life.  BUT most are good guys who don' take this place that seriously. 
That's enough got to go back in the basement...

[Steve Lang]

     How do you see us sticking together in the passion for Golf Course Architecture, and what is your updated definition?

As RJ said... reach out, meet up with other gca'ers, and play, discuss, repeat as able.

My highlight of 2016 was reaching out to Duncan C prior a business trip, and getting to spend a great day trekking over Reddish Vale, and discussing gca and world affairs.

Bright moments... but you've got to make a little effort to accomplish anything of value..

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